Anyone Ever Fire A Band Leader? - Page 2

BayStateBass · #21 02-08-2013, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaywa

6 hours of practice every week for a regularly gigging band is ridiculous.

Especially if you're doing mostly or all covers and your band has been together as long as it has.

If you want me to spend 6 hours a week rehearsing with your band you had better be paying me for it.

This is where some of the guys are at. They'd rather spend the extra day with their families.

We do need some practice because 50% of the band was replaced within the last month, but it's all covers and the guys can learn their parts on their own. I do. And most of them are common country standards or southern rock standards (like, can't everyone play Sweet Home Alabama and Can't You See?).

qervo · #22 02-08-2013, 07:38 AM

+1 .. ^ 6 hours is BS , when I was in a cover band we played every week . The only time we rehearsed was to learn up to 3 new songs and that only took an hour at the most.

rtslinger · #23 02-08-2013, 07:46 AM

Yup and it wasn't pretty but he crawled into a bottle and it was getting in the way of our goals. So we decided he needed to go. Nice guy and never drink anything but water when we were first putting it together but as soon as we started playing clubs he would drink scotch on the rocks in big water glasses and he was a mean drunk and it was affecting the band and the people who were coming out to see us. He actually begged us to take him back when he was sober but he had a real problem that he wasn't able to fix himself.

jaywa · #24 02-08-2013, 07:51 AM

6 hours a week to rehearse Can't You See and Sweet Home Alabama...

Yeah I can see why the old hands in the band would be getting restless.

mikelb7 · #25 02-10-2013, 09:10 PM

BayState, I think you have the best of intentions and you sound like a really fair guy. To be perfectly honest, I think you need to be more forceful with your "bandleader", even if you are both very close and even if he has had a bit of a tough life/run as of late.

You NEED to get him to understand that by being rigid and inflexible in his ways, he will end up losing more than he can potentially gain by having things "his way." You've mentioned you'll burn out if things keep on going the way they have and you've also mentioned that at least one band member is interested in forming other projects. By refusing to adapt to the needs of his band, your BL runs the risk of losing everything/everyone that has gotten him to this point. All because he refuses to be more accommodating. You have to make him see that this is the reality/inevitability.

You've mentioned his growing frustration/childish behaviour and also that a previous drummer has mentioned how BL is the weakest link. You've also mentioned that the band has never sounded better than it currently does. My guess is that BL is very well aware of the fact that he's the weakest link and that the band is very tight. You need to ask yourself if having him perform with your band is even worth the benefits of the large gigs that he brings. If the BL can score you guys a big gig but can't rock the show as hard as you guys will, is that worth the trouble? Will it damage YOUR reputation by being associated with BL? As someone else said, contacts only get your foot in the door, while good bands get hired back. Sounds like you're running a band which would have no troubles getting hired back!

You then also need to consider that BL probably doesn't have much "stage time" left. Regardless of how much he concedes or how hard he works you and everyone else, will the effort you put forth be worth it knowing that this project might not be something that exists for the longterm? Will you damage your relationship with the current bandmembers by sticking with the BL? Will they move on without you?

Even though BL is a very good friend, DiabolusInMusic has it right. But not only should you be able to tell a friend like it is, good friendships are a give and take relationship. It sounds like BL is doing a lot more taking than giving and this will ultimately be detrimental to everyone, himself included. I think you need to make this more than abundantly clear to him. I also think you need to decide how much his promotional skills and contacts are really worth to you. You've put a considerable amount of effort into this project and obtained success, I don't think it would be ridiculous to suggest that you couldn't make decent progress without BL.

two fingers · #26 02-10-2013, 09:29 PM

OK, I'm just going to spitball here.

1) I seems as though this BL takes a southern rock cover band WAAAAAAY to seriously. Do you guy do this for a living? What I mean is, is this your main source of income? If not, it's a bar band. Relax. Have fun with it. It ain't rocket surgery and it ain't changing the world. Calm down.

2) The BL is obviously dealing with a lot. His own mortality, his wife's health issues, and last remaining days of a long, not-so-fruitful music career, etc. He's got a lot on his plate. I would try talking to him IN PERSON, about the emotional side of what's going on with him. As a guy, I truly suck at those kinds of conversations with other guys. But having true friends requires me to step out of my comfort zone and be there for other guys. Allow him the opportunity to dump a little about what's going on with him on you. Maybe that will lighten him up and give him a little perspective as to what's really going on here..... namely the end of his career, the no so realistic hopes of being a big shot again, the very real possibility of losing his wife, an so on.

3) If that doesn't work, tell him at a rehearsal that he needs to put down the whip. The reason you need to do it at rehearsal is so that if it doesn't go very well, you guys are all there and can get your gear without having to hunt him down after the crap hits the fan.

It's a very touchy situation. And you are a good guy for wanting to step back and take a breath before acting. It's obvious he is making things no fun for you guys. But it's also obvious that you are trying your best to spare his feelings because of his stress load, your loyalties, etc. Best of luck with it.

plankspanker13 · #27 02-10-2013, 09:37 PM

Maybe the solution is to phase the BL out, into being promo guy. If you are diplomatic in your approach to the discussion, and he rises to the occasion, that would be the way of it. Sure, it would still be a blow to his ego, but, it might give him time to be there for his wife. There IS life outside of music, and there is life AFTER your musical prime is over. It takes a strong person to understand these things, and admit where they are, in their own personal career arc. Burn a bridge, if you must. Don't hold yourself, or your all-star team back from making the most of what they can be. You might even be able to dangle the carrot of having the BL play only select gigs.

MarkMgibson · #28 02-11-2013, 04:11 AM

I've been in this situation myself. One guy was the "official BL", but another bloke was actually doing all the work. It was quite similar in that the guy who started the band was the weakest musician, he knew it, and he'd find ways of firing people now and again to keep control. I don't think he did it on purpose, but that's what happened. It was a very good band, but eventually people just left for greener pastures (including me).

The rehearsal thing is a nonsense for experienced musicians playing covers. My band get together every couple of months to learn new songs, maybe change some arrangements. Six hours a week would be impossible for most of people I play with; due to family or work commitments.

If it were me, I'd talk to the other band members and see what they think. If you think you'll better without him, you coule just form a new band. I understand he's your friend, and you should try and do it as nicely as possible, but if he's holding you back, then the band will self-destruct anyway, and you'll all have to start from scratch. I would change the band name; not because of legal reasons (which sound thin to me), but just because it's not worth the hassle.

In the end though, I guess it depends on how you value this guy's friendship versus how you value the band. Nobody but you can really answer that question.

ChrisB2 · #29 02-11-2013, 05:09 AM

Some people just can't be reasoned with. It's up to you how much you "need" to fix this guy... depends on the level of friendship, your individual personalities, his behavior during your rescue mission... IMO you're under no obligation to go too far with it.

But to the original question, you (or the band) can't "fire" him in the classic sense, as he owns the rights to the band name. If you can't go on with the name, your (or the band's) only choice is to reform without him.

Seems to me that he knew this was a possibility which is what prompted him to secure the name rights... further indication that his rigidity is locked in and he probably won't change anything.

If I were you I'd warn him that the band is not going to tolerate his program and that time is short to change course and continue working with these people... to me that would fulfill your obligation as a "friend" to try and help him. Whether you stay after that is up to you... if he persists in his determination to destroy his band, personally I would either reform with the others or leave and look for a more positive and functional situation.

Waffles and Scotch · #30 02-11-2013, 10:20 AM

I'll never understand the whole "band leader" deal. Each of you are equal members, some just have more responsibility than others. If the majority of the members decide it's time to make a change, make it.

JakeF · #31 02-11-2013, 12:30 PM

I couldn't read all the posts so here is my .02.

Do both.

Start a new band with other players while playing in band with old band leader. If it works then everyone can ditch him, if not, no harm.

BayStateBass · #32 02-11-2013, 01:54 PM

Thanks for all of the advice, guys and gals (whichever you may be).

We had rehearsal yesterday and it was tense for a while. One of the biggest things we disagree on is how many new songs to add weekly, if any. Right now we have about 60 or so songs we do regularly, maybe 10 more in the back pocket. The drummer, lead guitarist, and singer have only been with us for about a month and they've had to play a lot of catch up just with our existing songs that we have always done because, well, you know the drill.....we are a cover band, not a tribute band, so not everything is exactly the way it was recorded. In my mind to add 4 songs every week is too much to ask them to do right now.

The old members are re-learning the songs because the majority of them have had the key changed due to the new singer's voice. It's not a big deal, but you have to switch off the auto-pilot you've been using for a while.

So, I ran practice and intentionally just worked on our existing song list and ignored the 4 new ones that were assigned. He was not happy. It all was going well, we breezed through like 25 or so songs before our break, and then he and I went outside.

And he expressed to me that he was unhappy with what I was doing.

I told him that he was wrong. You see, in my mind it doesn't matter if you have 200 songs on your song list......if you can't pull any of them off and make them sound good and tight. Our new members are about 85% with the stuff they're doing, but they freely admit to make it "picture perfect" they just need a little more time.

We battled back and forth and finally he backed down. But he wasn't happy about it. I told him that everyone in band except him is looking for quality first, quantity second. And the new members are doing all they can to get synched up with the old members, but as you know that doesn't happen overnight.

At this point it's still a work in progress to keep his expectations reasonable.

inthevelvet · #33 02-11-2013, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric_71

...
Maybe have a casual sit-down with him and express some of your concerns and see how you can help. I would recommend not burning bridges unless you absolutely have to, and whether it's to that point is something only you and the other band members know.

This is sound advice whether relating to a band, your day job, your spouse, or life in general. You may have to get firm, you may end up firing him/starting another band, but you really can't go wrong doing the above as a first step.

jaywa · #34 02-11-2013, 02:00 PM

Why does he think you need so many songs?

Is he one of these guys that just calls tunes out of the air (no setlist) depending on the mood of the room and the night? Or do you play pretty much the same tunes in the same order every show? If it's the first scenario I can maybe see it but in the second case there's no point to a "quantity over quality" approach. You can only play a certain number of songs a night anyway. Get your "core show" locked down tight with the new members and then move on to the optionals / new stuff.

Again, sounds more like something a person does just "because they can" rather than anything with a legitimate reason behind it.

The veterans of the band are bored silly and the new guys feel overwhelmed. I can see why morale is low.

BayStateBass · #35 02-11-2013, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaywa

Why does he think you need so many songs?

Is he one of these guys that just calls tunes out of the air (no setlist) depending on the room? Or do you run pretty much the same tunes every show? If it's the first scenario I can maybe see it but in the second case there's no point to a "quantity over quality" approach. You can only play a certain number of songs a night anyway. Get your "core show" locked down tight and then move on to the optionals / new stuff.

Again, sounds more like something a person does just "because they can" rather than anything with a legitimate reason behind it.

We have an assembled list of about 160 songs that we'd like to get comfortable with over the long-term. The list was established early on when the band was started, some have cycled out while some new ones have sneaked in, but generally it's mostly the same.

He is freaking out because our next show is 4 hours instead of our typical 3 that we used to to and planned our setlists around. And he's listening to another friend of his (who's band plays this bar a lot) who keeps telling him that he'd better be ready to go in with plenty of songs. He's scared to death that we'll run out of songs.

We usually perform the same songs every time, or at least we always did when it was the old group. Not an issue as we were only going out once or twice a month.

I keep reassuring him that we're going to be fine....no need to crack the whip on 4 songs a week. But he keeps listening to this other BL he is friendly with and for some reason this guy's opinion is like the spoken word of God to our BL. The "friend" is a really good guy and has always been helpful and a sounding board for the BL.

lokikallas · #36 02-12-2013, 03:58 PM

If I'm rehearsing 6 hours a week it better be for a technical death metal band! Lol

Mike N · #37 02-12-2013, 04:33 PM

The BL got fired in the first cover band I joined as Bass player.

I joined in '95 at the request of the BL, who was the singer. After the revolving door of guitards stopped swinging, we had a fairly solid lineup and even wrote some originals that were well received when we played them out. Plan was to hit the studio to record our songs, and keep gigging as a cover band with originals mixed in. Suddenly the rhythm guitard (also the drummer's brother) decided that we needed to change direction and become a Godsmack tribute band. He laid this on all of us at practice one night and told the BL that obviously our goals have changed and we no longer need you. Rather than argue the BL said ok and bailed.

What happened next still blows my mind. 20 minutes after the now ex-BL left the rehearsal spot, a singer came in and said he was here for an audition. Seems the guitard had this planned all along and ran an ad in the local classifieds for a singer.

Needless to say I bailed out of that cluster you-know-what.

BayStateBass · #38 02-12-2013, 10:20 PM

I almost quit tonight. THIS close. The BL and I went at it in the parking lot at the end of practice. I won't go into all the details because there were simply too many.

I like the guys, like the band, like the music, but am getting really ground down with putting in all kinds of work and having the BL instantly destroy what I have been asked (by him) to do.

Bottom line, and I came to this final conclusion tonight, is even though we like each other and we are good personal friends, this is actually how it is;

1. He wants me to do run the group and structure it and do the behind the scenes crap that makes it functional, but wants to have the option to overrule me on a whim.

2. The ability of the band musically has far surpassed his ability to contribute and he simply will not back off in his playing even though it has been recommended to him by everyone to play less. He's trying to force his playing down our throats when he wants to be heard.

3. It really is all about him and not about the band, even though he says differently. This became apparent to me when he asked us about booking us to do thursday nights twice a month all summer, and when the singer told him he was committed for thursdays and the BL was NOT happy about it. This has never come up before tonight. Because it's a venue HE wants to do. He recently shot down a venue that I had a connection for because he didn't like the clientele. The pay would have been good and it's a bar that gets some very good bands.

4. He has allowed this band to become his obsession and gets very upset when others do not share in his obsession.

I have allowed him to draw me into that obsession and now I have to evaluate just how much of my life I want this to take up from here on out.

I need to back off and cool down before I make any decisions. I need to separate myself some and think about this.

two fingers · #39 02-12-2013, 10:31 PM

It's time you guys got together away from rehearsal and had a chat with no instruments anywhere in sight. Tell him what you are up for and leave the ball in his court.

By the way, may I ask what you guys usually make in this band? Is this a "typical" bar band where everyone takes in a few hundred buck a month playing? If so, you guys are practicing WAY too much, worrying WAY too much about having enough songs, and probably even stressing out WAY too much over quality of performance. Don't get me wrong. I play in those kinds of bands all the time. I'm not knocking them. But the amount of stress, effort, emotion, and just WORK that you are putting into a bar band is amazingly out of whack to me. Practicing twice a week? Learning 4+ songs? Putting up with a whip cracker for a BL? Do you guys have day jobs and/or families that get put on hold for all this? Unacceptable. I can't be THAT hard to find someone else to jam with where you are, can it?

Again, you are a great guy for not tearing your friend's head off at any point up until now. Most of us would have told him where to stick it long ago. Best of luck with it either way.

BayStateBass · #40 02-13-2013, 06:19 AM

We are a bar band, nothing more.

We command $300-400 a night and split 6 ways it's not a lot of $$$. We have always been a group who wanted to do 1 or 2 shows a month because most of us have high-stress, demanding jobs and families. We certainly don't do it for the money 'cause there ain't any in doing it the way we do it.

We play danceable tunes and belly rubbing music to drunks and guys and gals out looking to find a piece for that night.

I know what we are and for what we are I have invested far too much. My mistake.

Like anyone, I want the band to be the best it can be but I have a reasonable expectation of what the group can do.

The BL keeps sending me Facebook messages asking if I'm alright. So far I have ignored them. I'm still too hot under the collar to talk to him and be rational/calm.

When I got into this I wanted to have fun. Play some shows. Make a couple extra bucks here and there if I could. It has not been fun for me.

I talk alot with our old MD (singer) and everything I'm going through is what he went through and exactly why he quit.