Anyone Ever Fire A Band Leader? - Page 3

MakoMan · #41 02-13-2013, 06:31 AM

Wow... that's a lot of stress for 50 bucks a person a night for shows and 6 hours a week of practice on top of that. You've taken a hobby band to Fleetwood Mac stress levels.
My .02... you both need to chill and remember that this is a hobby... right?... you play music because you enjoy it. Have a good long rational talk over a few beers and remember why you became friends in the first place.
If you can't work it out you should either step back into a role as just a musician, enjoy playing and let him lead the group again, or walk if that option doesn't work either. But do it on good terms, stay friends and remember the good stuff about playing together rather than the bad.
I would not fire him and take over a band with a long history that he started and ran for so long. That type of thing can come back to haunt you...

jaywa · #42 02-13-2013, 06:48 AM

The band is putting with up all that rehearsal time and the BL's BS for $300-400 a night?

Man you gotta get outta there. If you were clearing $300 a MAN per show it might be worth the hassle but for that kind of chump change It's not even close.

Look at it another way... if you walk away with $50 from a show you practiced 6 hours for, he basically paid you a little over $8 an hour to rehearse -- barely minimum wage -- and you played the gig for free.

Is that the going rate for bands in your area or is he low-balling to get gigs and/or stuck at the same price point he played at 20 years ago? Seems to me if your band is as good as you say then you guys (with different management) could be pulling a lot more. If nothing else, cutting Captain Bligh out of the equation puts a few more dollars in each of you other guys' pockets even if you can't charge more per gig.

MarkMgibson · #43 02-13-2013, 07:16 AM

Maybe you should just tell him you're thinking of leaving as the whole thing is too stressful and time-consuming (meaning the excessive rehearsals), and see what his reaction is. He might call your bluff, but it sounds like he needs you, so he may just back off. Just a thought.

jaywa · #44 02-13-2013, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

Maybe you should just tell him you're thinking of leaving as the whole thing is too stressful and time-consuming (meaning the excessive rehearsals), and see what his reaction is. He might call your bluff, but it sounds like he needs you, so he may just back off. Just a thought.

Only do that if you're actually prepared to walk. As in, then and there. If he calls your bluff and you back down, then he's got you worse than he did before.

Band relationships can be notoriously co-dependent and there's a lot of that going on in this particular situation, seems to me.

BayStateBass · #45 02-13-2013, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaywa

The band is putting with up all that rehearsal time and the BL's BS for $300-400 a night?

Man you gotta get outta there. If you were clearing $300 a MAN per show it might be worth the hassle but for that kind of chump change It's not even close.

Look at it another way... if you walk away with $50 from a show you practiced 6 hours for, he basically paid you a little over $8 an hour to rehearse -- barely minimum wage -- and you played the gig for free.

Is that the going rate for bands in your area or is he low-balling to get gigs and/or stuck at the same price point he played at 20 years ago? Seems to me if your band is as good as you say then you guys (with different management) could be pulling a lot more. If nothing else, cutting Captain Bligh out of the equation puts a few more dollars in each of you other guys' pockets even if you can't charge more per gig.

That's the going rate around here, tough to get more than $400 a night unless you are willing to play for cover or bar sales, and as you know that could go either way. Where I live and where we play is a more economically depressed area of the state.

As far as how good we are.....well, we're not going to Nashville any time soon but we've got no problem hanging with any of the groups out there running in the circles we run in. For a part time band we are actually pretty darn good, IMO. We must be good enough because we get offers quite a bit and have been invited back to the places we've played, one of them put us in their standard rotation after we played there.

BayStateBass · #46 02-13-2013, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaywa

Only do that if you're actually prepared to walk. As in, then and there. If he calls your bluff and you back down, then he's got you worse than he did before.

Band relationships can be notoriously co-dependent and there's a lot of that going on in this particular situation, seems to me.

I am not ready to walk on this group.

I could not make the threat because I would not (at this point) want to have my bluff called.

BayStateBass · #47 02-13-2013, 07:43 AM

Again, thank you to everyone who had advice and suggestions.

They are all greatly appreciated!

jaywa · #48 02-13-2013, 07:49 AM

Cool, best of luck getting this all resolved one way or another.

MarkMgibson · #49 02-13-2013, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BayStateBass

I am not ready to walk on this group.

I could not make the threat because I would not (at this point) want to have my bluff called.

Fair enough, it was just a suggestion. I wish you the best, but I don't hold out much hope for you in your present situation. The rehearsal thing alone is going to cause people to leave very quickly. I've played with professional touring bands that didn't rehearse that much on a regular basis. Six hours a week for a hobby band (and I don't use that term with any disrespect), that's ridiculous.

I hope you find some way to work things out, but I'm betting your fellow band members will starting deserting like Iraqi soldiers very soon. You can just leave things be and see what happens, or try and save the band. But if your friendship is more important than the band, then there's little you can do.

BayStateBass · #50 02-13-2013, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

Fair enough, it was just a suggestion. I wish you the best, but I don't hold out much hope for you in your present situation. The rehearsal thing alone is going to cause people to leave very quickly. I've played with professional touring bands that didn't rehearse that much on a regular basis. Six hours a week for a hobby band (and I don't use that term with any disrespect), that's ridiculous.

I hope you find some way to work things out, but I'm betting your fellow band members will starting deserting like Iraqi soldiers very soon. You can just leave things be and see what happens, or try and save the band. But if your friendship is more important than the band, then there's little you can do.

I should pay attention to the history. In the 3 years this band has existed, they have burned through;

2 drummers
1 bassist
5 guitarists
1 keyboard player
3 singers

And I have seen the majority of them come and go. A couple were before my time.

This current lineup is, by far, the best one yet. There is more talent in more places than we ever had at any given time in the past.

In any case, I certainly don't regret doing it, no matter what the result. I've gotten a chance to gain more experience, play a few fun shows, meet some nice people, learn a style of music that I never really thought I'd like (and now it's my preferred style to play), make a lot of connections, etc....

BawanaRik · #51 02-13-2013, 11:30 AM

Situations evolve. By any rational indicator you are functioning as the BL.

Look at what happened to Brain Jones.

MarkMgibson · #52 02-13-2013, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BayStateBass

I should pay attention to the history. In the 3 years this band has existed, they have burned through;

2 drummers
1 bassist
5 guitarists
1 keyboard player
3 singers

And I have seen the majority of them come and go. A couple were before my time.

This current lineup is, by far, the best one yet. There is more talent in more places than we ever had at any given time in the past.

In any case, I certainly don't regret doing it, no matter what the result. I've gotten a chance to gain more experience, play a few fun shows, meet some nice people, learn a style of music that I never really thought I'd like (and now it's my preferred style to play), make a lot of connections, etc....

Yeah, no offence to your friend, but that's often a sign of insecurity. Firing people, making unreasonable demands - these things are just his way of staying in control, or being being the dominant person in the band (even if he's doing it subconsciously). Probably because he's insecure about his own musical abilities.

It's a shame, because given the amount of musos you've gone through already, you know the rest are going to leave soon enough. Still, if he's a very close friend, what can you do? Sometimes a friendship trumps a band.

lokikallas · #53 02-13-2013, 09:20 PM

Sounds to me like your the only thing holding the band together. I don't quite understand what makes him the leader anyway. Picking a name? Is he lead vocalist? I'm sure starting a new band is a pain, but it sounds like you could make a few calls and have a new band ready to gig in 2 weeks.

Munjibunga · #54 02-13-2013, 09:59 PM

That happened in my very first band. It started out as a duo - a guy and his wife who did pop music for the small town's weddings and social events. I hung out with the guy, and when I happened to buy my first bass from a college classmate, he invited me to play with them. Then my brother joined up playing rhythm guitar. Since we were practically a band, we hired a kid to play drums.

Anyway, the guy was a raging alcoholic and was very undependable. We tolerated that for a while, but then at one gig he was drunk, and he actually punched his wife during a song over a perceived mistake. That was it. I told him and the rest of the band I couldn't hang with that and I quit. They said the same thing and quit, too.

So the next week, my brother, the drummer, and I got together and started looking for a singer and lead guitarist. Everything was word-of-mouth then - there was no CL - hell, there was no internet. So a secretary at work said she knew a girl singer, who we hired. The singer said there was a guy across the street from her who played guitar, and he came in, so we were a band again.

The guy and his wife are now divorced.

two fingers · #55 02-13-2013, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MakoMan

My .02... you both need to chill and remember that this is a hobby... right?... you play music because you enjoy it. Have a good long rational talk over a few beers and remember why you became friends in the first place.
If you can't work it out you should either step back into a role as just a musician, enjoy playing and let him lead the group again, or walk if that option doesn't work either. But do it on good terms, stay friends and remember the good stuff about playing together rather than the bad.

Being that you stated you are not ready to walk out yet, this is perfect advice from where I stand. You guys need to get together and talk this out, but in a very casual setting, nowhere near where you practice. I think that your friend (BL) is just under a lot of stress between dealing with his own mortality (both literally and his music career), and his wife's health issues. You are obviously one of the nicest and most patient people on earth. That makes you a good friend. But it also makes you an easy target for someone looking to vent. He knows he can let you have it every now and then and you won't take his head off or quit the band.

Now, at no point did I mean to suggest that your band being a bar band that plays for under a grand is a bad thing. I play in bands like that too from time to time. I was just looking for clarification. And, yes, the stress level for that kind of band is way to high at this point. I agree that if you take a gig, the band should do it's best no matter what the pay. But the kind of whip cracking that is going on now is just not needed.......... at all.

Here's my gut feeling on the whole thing. Your friend (BL) just needs to let go of his dream of getting famous. I think that deep down he knows it's not going to happen anyway. The odds of someone his age with health issues either getting famous or getting a gig with a big time act are astronomical at best. Once he lets go of that mess, I think he can relax and have fun playing in the best local bar band around. After all, that should be enough. Lest we forget he has a wife at home who needs him to be there for her anyway. In short, a little perspective would do him a world of good.

Although you aren't having any fun, this has been a really interesting (albeit tricky) thread. I hope it works out for both of you.

Downunderwonder · #56 02-14-2013, 03:28 AM

Good call, the guy has ideas above his talent level.

By some miracle he pulled together a full band of musicians that can handle the material. From the sound of it he is the one holding the show back now. Let the (semi)pro's have at it how they see fit.

MarkMgibson · #57 02-14-2013, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

That happened in my very first band. It started out as a duo - a guy and his wife who did pop music for the small town's weddings and social events. I hung out with the guy, and when I happened to buy my first bass from a college classmate, he invited me to play with them. Then my brother joined up playing rhythm guitar. Since we were practically a band, we hired a kid to play drums.

Anyway, the guy was a raging alcoholic and was very undependable. We tolerated that for a while, but then at one gig he was drunk, and he actually punched his wife during a song over a perceived mistake. That was it. I told him and the rest of the band I couldn't hang with that and I quit. They said the same thing and quit, too.

So the next week, my brother, the drummer, and I got together and started looking for a singer and lead guitarist. Everything was word-of-mouth then - there was no CL - hell, there was no internet. So a secretary at work said she knew a girl singer, who we hired. The singer said there was a guy across the street from her who played guitar, and he came in, so we were a band again.

The guy and his wife are now divorced.

I thought I'd seen everything, but he actually punched his wife on stage? I know it's not really funny, but it's a classic Rock & Roll story. LOL

Kmonk · #58 02-14-2013, 04:07 AM

About 10 years ago, I was in a band that was doing a lot of touring, opening for some well known artists and playing some very large shows. We had management based in Nashville who had a lot of great contacts. The BL (guitarist/lead singer) was very difficult to deal with. He was constantly lying to us, made racist comments toward our black drummer, skimmed money off of what we were paid and was constantly doing cocaine. When he made a mistake onstage, he would stop playing and turn toward the rest of the band, grab the mic and make comments that the rest of us should practice more. We spoke with the BL many times about his behavior and he would always say that we were just "hired guns" and could be replaced at any time. At one point he called our drummer a very derogatory racist slur. I called a meeting with the other members to discuss the situation and we decided that we would continue without him. Rather than tell him that he was fired, we told him that we were leaving his band and would continue with another guitarist.

rubbadubdub · #59 02-14-2013, 04:11 AM

No but we had a band leader who walked out of his own band because we outgrew him. It was sad really because we would never have got it together without him and we couldn't sustain it without him kicking peoples backsides into action either. He gave us the concept and we developed the sound but eventually we wanted to push the musical boundaries a little further and I suppose that he felt that he was losing control. We became a bit of a frankensteins monster.
Talking of monsters..... one band leader I wish we could have sacked was an overpedantic breadhead. Great musician though and quite successful. Sometimes it takes a strong character to motivate a bunch of musician even if that makes that band leader unpopular.
Think very carefully before sacking a band leader because they may be the only member of the band with the ability to keep it together. Nothings perfect and many a musician has struggled to find a band as good as the last one.

rubbadubdub · #60 02-14-2013, 04:25 AM

Sorry.. but one other thing... please have the backbone to fire the person face to face. Sacking someone via text message or email is extremely rude and disrespectful. You may not want to work with the person anymore but they are still a human being who shared a musical experience with you. There must have been some positives in the relationship at some time. Would you dump a partner in such a spineless way?
Word gets around and reputation counts for a lot in music circles. Be careful not to tread on people on the way up because you are sure to meet them on the way down.