anyone use thier own PA... any advice?

[mandrlane]

The new band is getting ready to start gigging. It's a three piece, so the money will split well. After some consideration we decided buying a PA would be a good investment so we don't have to pay someone to bring one in (and keep more $$).

I am hoping that we can get something passable (used) for under $3000

I assume we'll need:

Subs
Mains
Monitors
and seperate power for each. I already have a 900 watt(bridged) amp we can use for monitors... so I assume we will need a couple 1000 watters for the mains and subs.

Figure a macki 16 channel rack mount board will do... a snake... we already have a bunch of mics and cables.

so... can anyone recomend anything that sounds decent, but not too expensive?

Thanks

[Barisaxman]

Since you said you need a snake, I assume you will own the PA, but will still be hiring someone to come run it for you. Not a bad thing necessarily, my band does that for the smaller gigs; and we hire out the bigger stuff. If you want to keep things simple...use your amp for monitors, but think about picking up some powered speakers. There are lots of options, and you can get a very nice system that is properly powered for your budget. Before I can make and good recommendations it would be good to know what kind of music you're playing and what size venues you will normally be playing.

[justabass]

We usually run things from the stage. As long as you or the guitarist have a wireless and can go out front to check levels and such it works great.

[Dave Muscato]

I second the powered speakers idea. What size venues are you playing? IME, you don't need subs for bars & small clubs. They're huge and heavy and not worth owning. If you're playing a bigger club where you would need subs, they will usually have their own, or if not (rare), you can rent some for the night. My band usually plays places that have their own PAs, but for the rare bar gig, we have a Mackie VLZ-1604 sisxteen channel/four bus board and two JBL Eon 15s for mains. We use in-ears for monitors, which have the following advantages: they weigh less, take up less space in the van, sound better, are better for your ears, and cost less. Two JBL Eon 15s are plenty for your standard bar, but if we need subs, we rent them - only happened maybe a half-dozen times in 4 years... @ $80/night, it's a lot easier & cheaper than owning a couple subs and a decent power amp.

By the way, I run sound for my trio from the stage. If you're looking forward to splitting things three ways, one of you will probably be doing it For your standard bar gig, it doesn't matter, anyway... the room matters a lot more for a gig that size, and you really just need the vocals out there above the amps & kit. For bar shows like that, we run the vocals, maybe the hi-hat in, and maybe the guitars, bass, and kick drum, in descending order. Really, though, for a bar gig, it doesn't matter.

[Dave Muscato]

I thought I'd also mention that bands tend to over-emphasize power when buying a P.A. We have *never* been asked to turn up at a small club/bar gig... but are often asked to turn down. There is little reason to put out 120 dB at a bar... The real problem with weird rooms like bars is distributing the sound. Smaller speakers in greater numbers, spread out, are a better way to do this, although be careful of delay issues. I personally like the Bose cylindrical speaker arrays, but they're not cheap. Go to the Bose website for musicians and watch the video on how they work. They really are a perfect solution to the small-to-medium venue PA problem. Since they're backline, monitoring, and house-in-one, they also eliminate the need for cabs, monitors, and a soundman.

My 2 (or 10) cents

Dave

[moogboy]

i just had a great idea! what if everybody in the band had their own 'mini' PA? that would rock because then you could have a really nice control over what the audience hears.

[fishstix]

What kind of music are you playing? Certain styles of music will require more bottom end. I play with a band covering blues/rock with some funk/disco and 90's rock mixed in and we're able to get by without subs at 95% of our shows (then again I'm running a 750 watt bass rig into an 810 to carry the lows).
We usually use a pair of Mackie powered speakers run just for vocals slightly behind and outside the front line of mics. This allows us to use the same speakers for monitors and we're hearing exactly what's being put outfront. We'll cover a 400-500 person room like this with no problems. Every one asks how we get away with that set up without feed back but it works.
Of course bigger gigs and festivals need a much bigger set up (which we have and hardly ever use) but we get paid more for these and have decided to just hire out.
Go for a powered system that you can just add speakers to as you grow. Start with a good pair and add later IF you need it. Once you buy gear you can't get rid of it without loosing a ton of money. Having a big system can be fun for a while but eventually you'll be looking for the least you can get by with. We're playing 100+ shows a year and this is definitly the case for us.
Good luck.

[Monkey]

I use a powered Yamaha 12-channel mixing desk (I add a 4-track mixer if I need more channels) which powers the monitors. I use half of my Yamaha power amp for my bass rig and the other half (650 watts at 4 ohms) for the mains, which are Yamaha 1x12s on stands. I also have a Yamaha powered sub. This setup works well for small to medium-sized clubs playing mostly reggae, and even works well for small outdoor gigs.

[Marley's Ghost]

+1 for subs, even for small clubs. Do a search in this forum, there have been quite a few threads on the topic. For any Rock/Funk/R&B band subs give you an added dimension that get the crowd moving.

[Folmeister]

Yamaha MG series + JBL EON 15 G2 + JBL JRX 118sp subs = basic and manageable. My advice? Don't get caught up in the expenses. Make very clear who is to haul and set it up. That's where the trouble starts!

[justabass]

Powered is the way to go on these smaller venues. A powered sub is nice to have but usually you can get by without it! Check out Carvins powered stuff. Seems pretty solid...

[Jeb]

I also agree with the powered speaker suggestions. They are very simple to use and I have experience with several of the Mackie models and would recommend them. I see that QSC has a line out and they too would interest me.

But I would want to have at least one sub. Mackie makes their 1501 model that isn't overly difficult to move but performs very well. If for no other reason than to get a good kick drum thud that can be felt. That adds SOOOO much to your bands overall sound.

[mandrlane]

Man... great info... Thanks.

We're playing Rock (Hendrix/White Stripes/Rush/Halen/Billy Joel/etc... and some originals). I'll check out the bose. I would like to get away with less. although I do like the idea of a sub simply to get some real thump to the audience. is it safe to assume we could use two mains and one sub.

Thanks again for the info!

[mandrlane]

The bose set up looks very interesting... I assume one could use those along with a conventional stage set up... I mean still have a miked guitar amp, bass rig, etc. Just put a couple of those behind you to fill the room as needed only with better coverage and no need to use monitors. I really do like the idea of hearing what the audience does.

[SteveC]

Get a sub. We basically play 3 places in town. one has a Mackie powered system, 2 mains, 2 subs, the others are 15's on sticks. Guess which sounds better? Guess what it would take to make the other 2 sound better?

I also suggest the MAckie (or maybe the QSC, or Carvin) powered cabs. They sound great and it's less to haul. Amp racks are a pain.

[sb69coupe]

I'll offer a contrasting viewpoint. We always use subs at our gigs, even in small clubs. We dial in the PA to about 85-90dB out front, which is a very manageable level to talk over but still sounds full. The subs are essential for a great full-range sound, they provide the thump of the kick drum and bass that really rounds out the sound.

We also aim for very low sound levels on the stage. We each use small amps mainly as our personal monitors, and run into the PA for our sound out front. We've gotten many complements on the quality of our sound.

[kansas666]

Originally Posted by mandrlane

I already have a 900 watt(bridged) amp we can use for monitors...

Why are you bridging your amp? If you keep the channels seperate, you can send 2 different monitor feeds from your board.

One aux send from your board to one side of the amp to a monitor speaker. Do the same thing with the other side.

[jarrod cunningham]

ok BASS guys ! listen to someone who is first a sound man and second a bass player .... pa is just as important as any of our amps and guitars . if your pa sucks , you will too . ill bet my but cheeck that i can take an ok band , run them through my pa and make em sound like a good clubbing band ! powered speakers are fine and came down from the pros who use multiple cabinets . for small/med bands , i dont like em ..... if the amp goes out , you cant slave into them !!!! your screwed ..... and for the NO SUB GUY ???? what the crap man ??? where do you think most of the chest pounding sound comes from ??? a band that only uses the pa to amplify vocals is a band that wouldnt get to play in any of the clubs my band plays in !!!! theres no getting around mic'ing the rigs and drums .... now down to the real question . the mackie 1604vlzpro is the most used band mixer !!! its awesome .... then for your main out , go into a dbx 31 band eq running mono signal into a peavey kosmos subsynth/crossover unit . its awesome !!! crosses at 90hz and adds balls to the entire mix .... out of the high and low section of the kosmos into seperate channels of a dbx 266xl compressor for peak controls . then on out into your amps and speakers and so on .... compressors on every vocal channel , guitar , and bass !!! as for mic'ing the drums , good mics running into a multi channel gate ..... of course you need the knowledge to run these components , but if your playing infront of more than 100 people per show you need to sound good doing it .... or you can sound like some of these other crappy bands that are like the ones ive seen in my town and use a pa in a box , with some single 12 or 15 and horn cabs , have no NO low end , hear the stage mix more than the pa mix , and sound like crap doing it !!!!! for example , my band runs 16,000 watts , a minimum of 4 18's and four dual 15&horn mid high cabs . 4 vocal monitors , 1 drum monitor ... for larger shows we use up to 12 18's , 6 mid high cabs , side fill and floor monitors .... oh yea , were a medium sized cover band from alabama .... there are at least 20 other cover bands in our local area that use this much and more PA . and by the way , we havent even started talking about lighting !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sundogue]

Not everyone will want the same things, but I concur with those who suggest using subs, even in bars...hell, even in small bars.

Having the equipment does not mean one has to set the volume at max and break off the knob.

Even at VERY low volumes, subs will give your drums and bass more definition in the whole mix.

Monitors are a necessity, so don't go cheap on those.

Make sure you get a decent EQ. At least one for the mains and one for the monitors. Also get something to help control the low end more...either a Sonic Maximizer or a Kosmos. We tried the Kosmos, but prefer the BBE.

Mackie makes great stuff. We use a Mackie 24 channel. We use a 2000 watt Crown for the subs. You don't want to skimp on the power for the subs as they need headroom for clean low end. No, it's not so we can blow everyone away, but we do play outdoor gigs too. You can get by with less power for the mains and monitors. But being a bass player, you are already aware it takes more power for the low end.

We run/control everything from the stage. Both the guitarist and I have wireless systems. Once we have everything tweaked to our liking, there is very little else to do except adjust volume as the bar fills up. The best sound guy is the one who you trust the most. So we have that covered.

Anything else? Hmmm...

Make sure your drummer gets a good kick drum mic. Any old mic won't do, get one made for micing kick drums.

If you are just starting out in doing your own sound...

Do a good soundcheck...check the drums first. Start with the kick drum by itself. Try to get it kicking out good at about 90Hz (which is the natural resonating frequency of the chest cavity). That's what will get the girls shaking their booty, even at low volumes. Avoid having the kick drum out into 100-120Hz too much as you can feel it in your sinuses (instead of that thump in the chest), and instead of getting people dancing, you will just annoy them.

Do a full drum kit and bass soundcheck to make sure your stage volume is just enough to match the drums acoustically. You don't want your bass to overpower the drums onstage. Let the PA do the work for the house sound.

Then do a check on the vocals in the monitors first to bleed off any frequencies that might feed back. Then check them out front. Then do the other instruments and a full band check.

Try to do part of your check at the highest sound levels you might play at. Typically we'll turn up as the night goes on, as more people fill the room. So, you might as well do part of your sound check at what you think your max volume will be at even if you never play your sets at that volume. What doesn't cause problems earlier in the night, might show up when you play louder later on.

That's about all I can think of for now. Of course this is just general stuff and it's only a real basic gist of what to get, or do. There are plenty more tools, gear, and ways to go about it.

Best thing you can do is read as much, and talk to as many people, as you can about sound reinforcement.

[jarrod cunningham]

SUNDOGUE !!!! thats righ man , dead on . why else do we play music other than to express ourselves in music and get others to express themselves in dance .... yea , really i mean makin the girls shake their butts !!!! thats why we have subs !!!! lol lol lol BIG BOTTOM ... headroom is the key and the volume dont have to be on 11 !!!!!