Asserting Oneself Kindly To Band Members

[Munjibunga]

Originally Posted by Phalex

Hey! That was a dirty crack....... Speaking of dirty cracks, how's your mom doin?

Dunno. I'll dig her up and ask her.

[Phalex]

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

Dunno. I'll dig her up and ask her.

Ouch! I'm sorry man........

[bwardmusic]

Originally Posted by lfmn16

With bullies, you need to stand up for yourself the FIRST time they say anything. IMHO you are letting things go on far too long. It is going to be tough reversing the status quo.

Not to pile on, but the behavior you are describing is more timid than thoughtful. You teach people how to treat you; every time you let a comment slide because you are afraid of confrontation, you are teaching the person that it's OK to make those comments. I would recommend counseling to find out why you are having a hard time standing up for yourself.

Good Luck.

It's not piling on. I come to these forums to get objective perspectives. The thing that I'm wondering about is your signature line -- "don't argue with an idiot, they will only drag you down to their level and win the argument from experience....."

Isn't that what I've been doing? Refraining from arguing with an idiot?

See, in my full time work I associate with people who are never in the weeds. They are very professional. Even when there is disagreement it is kind and delivered in an atmosphere of respect.

We never have the kind of conflict I'm describing here which shows outright disprespect. I'm not even sure if I want to develop those kinds of skills that put others down when they are disrespectful. Many people here have advocated returning insults with insults, which I never find that productive. And I never feel positive about myself afterwards when I do that. And further, this only tends to escalate the problems as the person gets offended and goes out for blood.

I think there is a higher road. I'm starting believe the highest road is the one that takes me away from people who are simply disrespectful. The other environments in my life are not that way. So, you don't only train people how to behave around you, you create the kind of world you want by choosing your environment.

[gordon5377]

Originally Posted by sleeping buddha

Do the other band members allow this to go on? If I were in the band and you didn't say anything about, then I sure as hell would. Maybe try carrying an axe to practice, or maybe a crowbar. Just lean it against your amp and make sure the asshat see's it, then go about rehearsal as usual.

Maybe show up at your next practice/gig with a Cort Gene Simmons "Axe" bass, splatter a little fake blood on it and when you get questionned on it just casually say, "oh, yeah, sorry, I just had it sharpened."

[Nev375]

Originally Posted by bwardmusic

I want to respond to some of the comments above. First, I already involved group members on the first instance of bullying. I let them all know I was quitting unless the situation improved. If I do it again, it will be a problem and I will be forever branded as the drama queen.

In that case, its time to walk.

[derrico1]

Originally Posted by bwardmusic

Many people here have advocated returning insults with insults, which I never find that productive. ...

I think there is a higher road. I'm starting believe the highest road is the one that takes me away from people who are simply disrespectful. The other environments in my life are not that way. So, you don't only train people how to behave around you, you create the kind of world you want by choosing your environment.

Consider: Anthropologically speaking, you can't expect polite, middle-class academic culture to be universal.

In a lot of bands, the cultural practices either borrow heavily from blue-collar roots or from highschool locker-room culture.

That is to say, you might reasonably prefer the gestures and ceremonies of earning, giving, and recognizing respect that operate in your academic department. However, when you form a new band, those cultural practices will not automatically be the ones that every musician will recognize and subscribe to. (In fact, not even all academic departments are dominated by the forms of polite collegial respect.)

Unless you exercise some hegemonic control over your band's culture, it won't become suddenly polite just b/c you'd prefer it to be so. If you need that, you'll need to hire and fire folks who either come in with similar cultural expectations, or else have the juice to make your cultural expectations the norm.

Otherwise, you'll need to learn how to better engage with the local culture established by the dominant personalities in your band. Part of that is friendly push-back in the early stages of mock-fighting. Failing to respond confidently (with just the right amount of confident aggression to keep the response friendly) and immediately (not four months later) probably will be taken as a sign either of weakness or of disrespect.

Edit: I should add that no matter the band culture, there's a difference b/w initial play-fight goofing and the kind of disrespect you're seeing in your band. However, you keep it from escalating by deflecting/defusing it immediately.

[rythmicillusion]

Originally Posted by bwardmusic

I think there is a higher road. I'm starting believe the highest road is the one that takes me away from people who are simply disrespectful. The other environments in my life are not that way. So, you don't only train people how to behave around you, you create the kind of world you want by choosing your environment.

You pretty much said it yourself. If you thrive and appreciate people who are respectful and professional and have an underlying and/or explicitly kind tone, the band you're is a bad fit. Furthermore, you tried to change the environment but the weeds grew back...

I've never felt disrespected or bullied in any band situations. However, I have quit a couple groups for various reasons, usually revolving around unshakably negative attitudes, substance abusers, or a lack of musical satisfaction. I took stock, found these groups not to be worth the hassle, made the painful step of severing ties, and haven't had any regrets. On the contrary, those actions directly led to situations which are much more positive all-around; smaller egos, bigger musicianship, more humor, better gigs, etc.

So unless there is some huge redeeming factor(s) you'll be hard pressed to find in another group, my opinion is you should have left the group yesterday.

[bwardmusic]

This has been a good discussion. I spoke to my wife about this yesterday evening and said "Am I a wimp? A pushover?". She said, "No, you just live your life by a different set of rules than other people".

I believe the problems stem from the fact that I thrive in environments where people have pure motives and where there is a culture of kindness. I'm not perfect by any means, but I have very little interest in the gamesmanship people describe here as a fact of life in bands with different backgrounds.

And I think you are right. This band is a bad fit. The other band I play with (a jazz group) is composed of university graduates, two of them in music. We get along much better and there isn't the same kind of disrespect.

So, how would you leave this group? What would be your approach. They also depend on me for a) rehearsal space b) I own part of the PA and c) I also pay all the domain hosting fees and design/update the dedicated website. They also have several gigs booked on the horizon because as part of my stand a while ago, I insisted someone else start booking gigs like they promised they would -- and they have stepped up. The last bully even made amends by using his contacts to book my jazz band in for some really good corporate gigs and a high profile jazz festival -- and he asked for nothing in return.

In spite of these things, I am worn out from what it takes to make the band an enjoyable experience.

I guess at this point, I would like to figure out how to leave well. Perhaps there is a thread on this somewhere else, or maybe you have suggestions.

[INTP]

I don't know you, of course, so this is based on my own bias rather than a complete understanding of your particular situation... But it seems to me that this is about personal dynamics and the band setting is just background. Unless I'm way off base, you might find it useful to think about it in a more general context of how you relate to people generally than what tactics to use to deal with a band situation.

Having said that, I think of myself as pretty easy-going, and tolerant of a wide variety of personality differences. But there are a few patterns of behavior for which I have very little tolerance. At the top of my list is Bullying (and a close second is victim behavior, as in Victim Triangle). It's perhaps a more specific way of saying, "Be nice, until it's time to not be nice," except that for bullying, I don't tolerate it for any amount of time. As others have mentioned already, it seems much easier to me to nip it in the bud than to reverse a pattern that has been established.

Much of what I'd say has already been said here, so I won't pile on. I wish you well, and hope that you get some insight to help you find a dynamic that you find enjoyable.

[Lindsay]

Originally Posted by Renaissance

Stand up straight.
Look people in the eye.
Shake hands firmly.
Speak clearly and audibly.
Do not allow "jabs" to go unanswered.

That's good advice.

[the explode man]

Either:

1) Some people just suck at life and being people, so be around new people who don't suck, or;
2) Kill the least valuable one. Make a point to drink his blood and smear it all over the room. Urinate on all of their equipment and scream wildly. This will assert your dominance and solidify your position as the alpha male.

The choice is yours.

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by guy n. cognito

"Be nice, until it's time to not be nice."

You're going to have to learn that sometimes you have to drop the nice guy crap and defend yourself.

Absolutely! The next time this clown makes some nasty comment, I'd tell him to "f**k off, you complete c**t of a human being, or I'll stick this bass right up you ****ing ass", or something to that effect.

And make sure the rest of the band hears it too. What have you got to lose? You can't be having much fun, so the worst thing that can happen is that they kick you out of this band of vipers.

[A Strohman]

Originally Posted by bwardmusic

I guess at this point, I would like to figure out how to leave well.

Let them know you'll do gigs which are already on the books but after that you are moving on. How detailed you wish to be in your "notice" is up to you. I would keep it simple and just let them know that you're moving on and that you wish them well.

[placedesjardins]

Originally Posted by bwardmusic

...How do you respond in situations like this? Any advice?

Are these band members friends or you all hooked up through auditions and were total strangers before then?
A band should be a team, everyone works together for a common goal and helps each other, not tear each other down.
Not everyone becomes instant best buds, but at least there should be some kind of cohesiveness if you are in a band where everyone likes the same kind of music.

How would I respond? I react to direct bullying head on rather than with passive behavior. So unfortunately, it would get ugly.

Advice, you are who you are and I can't tell you to become a rude person, like me. I'm rude. I'm tough. I'd rather not take the diplomatic way out when it comes to bullying. It's not the best way and I know I need to be a kinder, gentler person. I have no advice for you because you are not me and I am not you.

[blindrabbit]

Originally Posted by Phalex

If you aren't having fun, there's no reason you should be in a band. At least not this band.

I have a very long fuse, and I can take a hell of a lot, but being disrespectful just for the sake of being a disrespectful jackass? Oh HAIL NO!

I just left a band rather abruptly after one of the co-founders/co-leaders expanded upon his odd, self-righteous, and slightly paranoid nature by moving into taking on an abusive, manipulative, and intensely paranoid tone with me.

As I don't play music for income or as a career (although in this situation I'm quite sure I would have done the same thing even if I did), I didn't hesitate to terminate any connection I had with people who were getting in the way of spending my relatively minimal and rather precious "free time" with something that should be fun. I could care less whether or not we were going to play gigs for no money or a lot of money - I'm not going to subject myself to people like this.

People are exactly who they are, and you have the right to decide whether or not you want to spend time with them. You really can't change anyone else, nor should it be your responsibility to. There are lots of people out there who would probably really enjoy playing in a band with you - go and seek them out, and have some fun.

[Nev375]

As far as breaking up goes, I would go with something like:

Hey guys, remember that discussion we had about bullying and disrespect? As far as I can tell, that situation has not improved significantly, so as I said I would do, I'm quitting. Sorry its not going to work out, but I just don't have the patience to deal with this.

Please gather up your things and take them with you. Good luck to you and have a nice day.

[bwardmusic]

Thanks for the responses above, I appreciate them.

To answer your question above.

Two of us were friends. The remainder have come together through ads and auditions. I am one of three founding members.

The "friend", when I explained the bullying problem eventually told me it was "not his problem" and left me to my own devices. The singer was very kind though and after I stood my ground, later confided she brought the former bully to task. Then he got really nice and I started actually getting along quite well with him.

The comment from my "friend" though, bothers me.

[Bassbubble11]

Bands are a relationship. Without respect the
relationship will fail.

I'm not gonna sugar coat this for you. The guys
in your band are douche bags.

Move on.

[Flyingfrets]

I've mellowed with age and don't particularly care for being confrontational just for the sake of being argumentative anymore.

In my 20's, it was a different story. An ex used to refer to me as "The Angry Young Man."

There have been a few times I've turned that caged, pissed off, inner demon-bastard loose on a few deserving targets though.

No, I don't like to fight, but that doesn't mean I can't or won't.

[sondich]

Originally Posted by Bassbubble11

Bands are a relationship. Without respect the
relationship will fail.

Move on.

Agreed.

If a band mate is treating you in a condescending manner and other members feel you bring it on yourself, it's probably not the right mix of people. I doubt it will be resolved to your satisfaction.

I've not experienced this in a band but I've seen it happen at companies. There are certain personality types who irrationally direct their frustrations toward introverted people.

Do what's in your own best interest. If that means finding another group, so be it.

Good luck