Asserting Oneself Kindly To Band Members

[Munjibunga]

Originally Posted by Phalex

Ouch! I'm sorry man........

She's been history since 1969, so no prob. She's the reason I keep buying all these basses. It's very deep, but a clue can be found in one of the interviews on Steely Dan's "Two Against Nature" DVD. Seriously - zero butthurt here.

[rythmicillusion]

Originally Posted by bwardmusic

This has been a good discussion. I spoke to my wife about this yesterday evening and said "Am I a wimp? A pushover?". She said, "No, you just live your life by a different set of rules than other people".

I believe the problems stem from the fact that I thrive in environments where people have pure motives and where there is a culture of kindness. I'm not perfect by any means, but I have very little interest in the gamesmanship people describe here as a fact of life in bands with different backgrounds.

And I think you are right. This band is a bad fit. The other band I play with (a jazz group) is composed of university graduates, two of them in music. We get along much better and there isn't the same kind of disrespect.

So, how would you leave this group? What would be your approach. They also depend on me for a) rehearsal space b) I own part of the PA and c) I also pay all the domain hosting fees and design/update the dedicated website. They also have several gigs booked on the horizon because as part of my stand a while ago, I insisted someone else start booking gigs like they promised they would -- and they have stepped up. The last bully even made amends by using his contacts to book my jazz band in for some really good corporate gigs and a high profile jazz festival -- and he asked for nothing in return.

In spite of these things, I am worn out from what it takes to make the band an enjoyable experience.

I guess at this point, I would like to figure out how to leave well. Perhaps there is a thread on this somewhere else, or maybe you have suggestions.

Severing a band relationship can be like divorce proceedings. The emotions may soar and roar, messiness may ensue with property and plans, or perhaps both parties realize it's the right decision and immediately act more civilly than before, or somewhere in between.

Regardless of what may happen, what I'd do based on what you've told us would be the following;

1) Sound like you've talked it out with a at least somewhat impartial source (your wife), in addition to others I'd imagine? Good.

2) If you still have a true confidant in the band, let them know a little bit ahead of time, as in a day or two before you make the announcement official. This person may offer great advice on handling the breakup, or at least will provide some encouragement and/or different perspective. You may learn predictions on how certain people may react, or if anybody has seen it coming. They may also speak to more pragmatic issues like the shared PA.

3) Let each person know ahead of time that you have an important matter to bring up. Speak to everyone in person all at once, perhaps in lieu of, or at the end/beginning of a rehearsal. Just be yourself while being direct. Things can be spun positively For example, to start "...I've been feeling this way for months. It's a relief to talk it out with you all, thanks for taking the time to hear me". Or to end "This change may feel uncomfortable right now, but it's going to let us all move on from unproductive tension, and you all can find a much better fit in a bassist. This is just an opportunity for everyone to improve".

4) Taking care of loose strings may be the most awkward and/or controversial step. I had to deal with a very similar situation myself: paying a quarter of the rehearsal room, doing a decent amount of promo work on my dime, having paid into "band funds" over time where some of the equipment was partially owned, having a few gigs in the pipeline...

What I did was offer to pay my share of the rent for one more full month so they had a reasonable amount of time to find a replacement, figured out a piece of gear to take that would be useful to me but wouldn't cripple them (not sure how much you have invested), and fully committed to play the gigs I had already agreed to UNLESS a suitable replacement was found beforehand. Since this was an amicable separation for me, I also offered a recommendation for a suitable replacement, and eventually helped show a few prospective replacements some of the tougher riffs and gave guidance. That may not be appropriate or even necessary in your circumstance. As for the web thing, perhaps you could offer another month of your service?

If things get heated here, I'd try to be democratic, but if you really have ownership over something (for example, web fees) and can't afford to make certain compromises (not willing to pay another cent), you'd be unfair to yourself.

5) Unless you feel in your heart of hearts that real change is in the air and the antagonists suddenly are "different people" after what you have to say, don't be swayed from your decision. The only thing harder than breaking up with a band is half breaking up, thus dragging things further down, potentially leading to something far worse down the road.


All these things would show you going out your way to be as respectful, empathetic, and mindful of the consequences of your departure, but are also attached to firm deadlines and a clean exit.

Just my two cents of course, but I hope it at least it gives you some helpful ideas. At the end of this, you're going to feel so much better!!!

[4dog]

I think you brought your intellect to a keg party,, and a drunk threw up on ya,,is the dude a hs grad ,, a grad student,, a prof,, see,, if ya want a knuckledragger to respect you,, YOU cant lift him to you,, you kneel down to him so to speak,, its a fine line between insult and conversation,, just judging how you speak ( not starting nothing) your brains intimidate him,, hes trying to fit with the rest of the band probably has the hots for your singer and your an easy target,, i would have said this, " dude, dont mistake kindness for weakness" if he kept on then i would quit,, life is too short

[bluewine]

My band, and I have been with them a year now, were not friends, we don't really know each other and we don't hang out with each other.

However if you saw us performing you would think we were long time pals.

My point, we don't know each other. That means no drama.

Interesting, I just left rehearsal and our guitarist wife sent all of us home with these big containers of some really awesome pasta. Go figure.

Blue

Attachment 300199

[bwardmusic]

Originally Posted by rythmicillusion

Severing a band relationship can be like divorce proceedings. The emotions may soar and roar, messiness may ensue with property and plans, or perhaps both parties realize it's the right decision and immediately act more civilly than before, or somewhere in between.

Regardless of what may happen, what I'd do based on what you've told us would be the following;

1) Sound like you've talked it out with a at least somewhat impartial source (your wife), in addition to others I'd imagine? Good.

2) If you still have a true confidant in the band, let them know a little bit ahead of time, as in a day or two before you make the announcement official. This person may offer great advice on handling the breakup, or at least will provide some encouragement and/or different perspective. You may learn predictions on how certain people may react, or if anybody has seen it coming. They may also speak to more pragmatic issues like the shared PA.

3) Let each person know ahead of time that you have an important matter to bring up. Speak to everyone in person all at once, perhaps in lieu of, or at the end/beginning of a rehearsal. Just be yourself while being direct. Things can be spun positively For example, to start "...I've been feeling this way for months. It's a relief to talk it out with you all, thanks for taking the time to hear me". Or to end "This change may feel uncomfortable right now, but it's going to let us all move on from unproductive tension, and you all can find a much better fit in a bassist. This is just an opportunity for everyone to improve".

4) Taking care of loose strings may be the most awkward and/or controversial step. I had to deal with a very similar situation myself: paying a quarter of the rehearsal room, doing a decent amount of promo work on my dime, having paid into "band funds" over time where some of the equipment was partially owned, having a few gigs in the pipeline...

What I did was offer to pay my share of the rent for one more full month so they had a reasonable amount of time to find a replacement, figured out a piece of gear to take that would be useful to me but wouldn't cripple them (not sure how much you have invested), and fully committed to play the gigs I had already agreed to UNLESS a suitable replacement was found beforehand. Since this was an amicable separation for me, I also offered a recommendation for a suitable replacement, and eventually helped show a few prospective replacements some of the tougher riffs and gave guidance. That may not be appropriate or even necessary in your circumstance. As for the web thing, perhaps you could offer another month of your service?

If things get heated here, I'd try to be democratic, but if you really have ownership over something (for example, web fees) and can't afford to make certain compromises (not willing to pay another cent), you'd be unfair to yourself.

5) Unless you feel in your heart of hearts that real change is in the air and the antagonists suddenly are "different people" after what you have to say, don't be swayed from your decision. The only thing harder than breaking up with a band is half breaking up, thus dragging things further down, potentially leading to something far worse down the road.


All these things would show you going out your way to be as respectful, empathetic, and mindful of the consequences of your departure, but are also attached to firm deadlines and a clean exit.

Just my two cents of course, but I hope it at least it gives you some helpful ideas. At the end of this, you're going to feel so much better!!!

This is the approach that is most like me. I try to bring things to a soft landing. On the other hand, these people have walked all over me time and time again. So, I don't feel like forking over more coin.

I may reel back a bit and let them fend for themselves. They are driven people and will figure out a way. They already are trying out a sub for a gig I can't make. They asked if it was OK if they got one and said they wouldn't get a sub if I had a problem with it (that was nice). I said fine, go ahead and use the sub, no problem.

This guy apparently can the nail the tunes without a rehearsal, so they may have someone who can replace me without any problem. Particularly since they have gigs in the pipeline. I find musicians come out of the woodwork when there is money on the table.

So, it may work out. I want to leave on as good a note as possible though. Not sure I'm comfortable with getting everyone together though. They are somewhat aggressive people and will likely turn it into confessing my sins. I think I should do it one at a time through phone and face-to-face appointments stacked within minutes of each other.

Something tells me they won't be disappointed if I quit. You don't treat valued members with disrespect.

[ChrisB2]

Originally Posted by bwardmusic

This is the approach that is most like me. I try to bring things to a soft landing. On the other hand, these people have walked all over me time and time again. So, I don't feel like forking over more coin...

I was going to post a long response yesterday but it basically said you don't owe these guys anything.

Sure, decent people deserve lots of notice, covering obligations, a thoughtful and considerate exit. These guys don't.

IMO you're justified to quit in any fashion you choose with no holds barred. One mass text saying "I quit" would be more than nothing, and not too little.

[JoZac21]

Bullying like this just isn't funny...

I was picked on for most of my life, even by one side of my family (and they were the worst).

My advice: life is way too short to deal with assholes that don't appreciate you. Surround yourself with people that like/appreciate you.

Fin.

[BrotherEarl]

I've been in bands where one person kind of became the de facto punching bag of the group. Mostly it was in good fun but I always made it a point to tread the line lightly and let him know that his contributions were appreciated. It never became an issue and good fun was always had. I'll even go as far to say it was the most fun I've ever had playing in a band.

A few years later I was playing with a different group and I started to feel like I was sliding into that role. I was going through some things and the lead-singer would make it a point to lay into me now and again.

It was all in good fun, until it wasn't, and then one night I picked him up by the neck and pinned him to a wall and told him that I didn't appreciate it and it would end there or I wouldn't let him down.

He agreed to end it. The band lasted a few more months after that. While I don't doubt it contributed to the breakup I can't see how I would have wanted for it to go on much longer the way things were.

[bwardmusic]

Now that we've established this sort of thing is pretty common, anyone care to expand on why people do this? What are they hoping to accomplish by putting others down or mocking them/bullying them this way? Particularly when they are 45 years of age or more? Someone above said they are trying to see if they can take advantage of you for future reference, but I suspect there may be other reasons.

I can say that I never intentionally irritate other people this way. I don't understand why they do it and how they can walk away feeling good about themselves afterwards.

The other thing -- when I assert myself, I find they often step up the bullying. Or they try to tell you that you don't have a sense of humor (the guitarist said that to someone standing beside me when I asserted myself the first time at the gig this weekend) or that you take everything wrong. When he was clearly just being an idiot.

So, the conversation starts circling the drain. But the main question -- why do they do it in the first place??

[Randall]

Because they are sociopaths? Lots of good people out there to jam with

[4dog]

Because they dont feel good about themselves and putting someone else down in some sick way,, makes them feel like they are better or have more contrll of tjeir life ,, even though they most likely do not,, its psychologically pathalogical,, they dont know why,, they just cant stop themselves,, its why you have to ,,snaps them into reality,, even if they say ya got no sense of humor ,, yours is fine theres is messed up.

[Downunderwonder]

Same as hens peck each other on the back of the head to assert dominance. There is plenty of food for all but they still do it. Some humans don't evolve into higher minded beings.

[Bass Viking]

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

She's been history since 1969, so no prob. She's the reason I keep buying all these basses. It's very deep, but a clue can be found in one of the interviews on Steely Dan's "Two Against Nature" DVD. Seriously - zero butthurt here.

Bass hoarding?

[Renaissance]

I think 'most everything exists in varying degrees. For every full fledged bully out there who is trying to exert dominance over everything, there is a professional victim who is always getting the short end of the stick. For every person who makes a snide comment with hatred in their heart, there is a person who assumes every comment someone makes is directed toward them (with hatred). Most of us fall between these extremes. I think if you feel you are more towards one end than the other you should look inward.

[kcole4001]

Originally Posted by Randall

Because they are sociopaths?

Bingo!
They're everywhere, and you are no more important to them than a telephone or notepad.
Just bumps on their road, not people with their own lives/concerns to be considered as equals.

Do what you have to do to get away from these 'people', but don't be concerned about their feelings in any way, they weren't at all concerned about yours.

[Stumbo]

Originally Posted by bwardmusic

TThey also depend on me for a) rehearsal space b) I own part of the PA and c) I also pay all the domain hosting fees and design/update the dedicated website. They also have several gigs booked on the horizon because as part of my stand a while ago, I insisted someone else start booking gigs like they promised they would -- and they have stepped up. The last bully even made amends by using his contacts to book my jazz band in for some really good corporate gigs and a high profile jazz festival -- and he asked for nothing in return.

Sounds like you're the band leader.

I suggest you become a leader. Learn how to tell people what to do in a dynamic environment. If someone is disrespecting you, IMO, no need to think about it over night. Your response doesn't need to be perfect. Don't be afraid to make a mistake. No need to wait for months to respond. No need to threaten to quit.

Using threats to get changes made is immature and unprofessional. Sounds like everyone changed because you were going to take your ball and go home, figuratively speaking.

Since this has been happening your entire life this far, I suggest you think about counseling to give you some tools to deal with these types of people.

Since you are an academic, maybe there are people at the university that you can help with leadership issues. Lots of majors get into this topic. Lots of books on the topic. How about Dealing with Difficult People as a starter.

In spite of these things, I am worn out from what it takes to make the band an enjoyable experience.

IMO, what is wearing you out is that you are too passive and take months and months of abuse. Abuse that you internalize without responding in a timely manor.

How about setting up rules for the band ahead of time and get everyone to agree. Anyone who can't follow them is fired, by you. You have more power than you realize.

You need to learn how to fire people and keep the ones that are positive and productive. You said things changed when you threatened to quit. That means that your band members can change their behavior at rehearsal. YOu have to demand it as times go on, just like any good leader does. This can be learned just like any other behavior. You have to work at it.

IMO, your passivity probably does not serve you well in most areas of your life where problems arise...banking, bill paying, returning products, discussing bad service you've received, etc. This goes on every day, all day. We all have to deal with it. Since you're not able to speak up for yourself where tens of millions of other can and do speak up, maybe you can see that your behavior is the problem and changing your behavior is the solution.

I guess at this point, I would like to figure out how to leave well. Perhaps there is a thread on this somewhere else, or maybe you have suggestions.

You may want to check out this thread: If I only knew then... Plus check out the >500 links thread in my sig. below for more great TB info on being in a band, leading a band, quitting a band, etc.

Btw, I had my own issues while being in a band: sometimes to quick to quit in response to comments. Sometimes too passive and slow to respond.

Looking back, I never got enough sleep and was always tired and irritable because I had too much going on (work, school, band, girlfriend). I also now realize that I was low in my B vitamins and D3 based on my current consumption of supplements and how they have helped my memory and thinking processes. Some extensive lab work from your doc may also pinpoint any health problems that could be affecting your behavior. It would have help me, that I know for sure.

I hope everything works out for you. There's lots to learn about dealing with people that can help you if you choose. It takes much effort to achieve a new "normal" if you want to implement a new philosophy. No time like the present.

Good luck.

[MarkMgibson]

You don't need this sort of aggravation in your life - just leave. You owe these halfwits nothing.

[Tat2dHeart]

I just went through this in my band. I'm a co-founder along with my drummer. We invited my friend to join us to sing and play rhythm guitar. He and I have joked and clowned for years with no offense taken and both treating the other as equals. Once he was in the band, however, his personality was entirely different and the picking at me was constant and personal. I'm not a fan of public drama, so I didn't say a lot in rehearsals, but I talked to him privately on more than one occasion. I live on a three strikes rule - and he was at two strikes for our first gig. One song in, he made a comment about me on mic that drew a bad crowd reaction. After a cooling off period and much discussion with the drummer, I took my friend out for a beer and asked him to leave the band because his behavior was unacceptable. It's tough to do, especially when it's a friend, but the reality of life is that people will treat you how you allow them to treat you, so if you don't like being treated badly, you have to step up and put a stop to it.

[bwardmusic]

AS I read the comments above (some riddled with assumptions, understandably) I really do believe it's time to leave this group....I can't fire anyone. If I act unilaterally, everyone gets their back up. I have no interest in the confrontations, and if I do assert myself, there is always backlash. Or they improve for a while and then go back to their old ways.

I find they rarely take my suggestions anymore either. I booked a free, professional video shoot recently. In the past we have decided repertoire and set lists via facebook. We did so in a yahoo group with the other band I'm in with (the drummer is a member of that band too). It went fine.

So, I put together a suggested list of tunes we do for the video shoot in our facebook private messaging system where a lot of discussion happens.. No one answered. I mention at the gig that I hadnt' seen any commentary on the private facebook message post and I get "haven't had a chance to get in there yet" or similar. It comes up with the bully guitarist present and I mention
I posted the list for discussion. He says "we'll have a list, but it won't be that one". When I looked shocked he says to the drummer [pointing to me] "he has no sense of humor". Then, two days later the drummer calls me and tells me we are going to decide the list in our next rehearsal.

I felt ticked because i set the whole thing up and there is no official leader in the band. And I don't like to be told how things will be decided after I took initiative to get the set list together for this project I started.

I honestly think it's time to quit, on my own terms. You are right, I don't owe them anything. Simply writing out this stuff helps me see it objectively.

[MarkMgibson]

You'll be a happier man away from those childish creeps. I'm glad to hear you're in another band, as I know I hate being without a gig (even if it's just an informal thing).

Best of luck,
Mark