Asserting Oneself Kindly To Band Members

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by bwardmusic

Now that we've established this sort of thing is pretty common, anyone care to expand on why people do this?

Could be any number of reasons. It's hard to say why they do it without knowing exactly what they do that you consider bullying.

[fdeck]

Just a thought about bullies. I'm not sure that this helps or changes your present band situation, but for future reference...

I've noticed that "successful" jerks are capable of crossing over the line, just far enough to get under your skin, but without doing anything that you can call them on. Thus if you respond, it's easy for them to make you out to be hypersensitive or even dishonest. If you try to debate with them, and think that you have won, they will just accuse you of blowing things out of proportion.

Don't enter into a debate that you can't win. My rule is that I don't debate with jerks.

[Munjibunga]

Originally Posted by Bass Viking

Bass hoarding?

Well, I thought that might be possible, but I've sold some basses and amps to prove to myself that I'm not a hoarder. But right now I'm at an all-time high on basses. I think it's less about quantity than quality, though. I like fabulous basses, but I have some Fenders to keep me grounded.

[Stumbo]

Originally Posted by bwardmusic

I can't fire anyone.

Sure you can.

I felt ticked because i set the whole thing up and there is no official leader in the band. And I don't like to be told how things will be decided after I took initiative to get the set list together for this project I started.

Seems to me that you're doing leadership things in a band that the others consider a democracy.

IME, you can't act unilaterally unless you're the appointed leader.

Since you're not the appointed leader, only acting like one, how can you expect everyone to do exactly what you tell them to do? You can't have it both ways.

IMO/IME, your acting out based on your passive-aggressiveness personality and that's what has got you in trouble your whole life and it's so normal to you that you can't see it.

Why didn't you get everyone to weigh in on the video shoot and song list ahead of time? Since you're not the leader, wouldn't that be the respectful thing to do?

I would see your actions as you being a sign of passive-aggressive control freak who won't take a position on issues within the band during rehearsals but is willing to go outside the band, set things up on your own and then get pissed on because other don't agree with you.

Since you don't like confrontation and to be told "no" or have your plans modified (since you know better ), you're setting yourself up for failure and creating negativity within the band.

I've seen this in people before many times and I've been the passive-aggressive one in the past. It took way too long for me to realize it and even long to incorporate changes into my daily thinking and problem solving. I still have to work on it everyday.


Go ahead and quit. Remember, wherever you go, there you are.

Btw, just because you're smart doesn't mean whatever you do is the smart thing to do. We all have our limitations. IMO, the important thing is that one recognizes and does something about them.

[bwardmusic]

I think a few posts earlier on the second and third page there was an accurate assessment of the situation...a mix of personalities that don't fit well together. Some bullying involved.

I concur that it's good that I have another band to gig with (jazz group). That group has been together since 2009 and gets along very well due to the way the Craigslist ad was written. It attracted the right mix of people.

Time to think about a different band given the behavior of the rock band we've been talking about here. Thanks to everyone who participated.

[BrotherEarl]

Originally Posted by bwardmusic

Now that we've established this sort of thing is pretty common, anyone care to expand on why people do this?

In the situation I was in the lead-singer was knee-deep into a drinking problem, had a serious ego and we had gotten a ton of free press and gigs from a CD we did.

We should have been on the top and happy about it. Instead he just turned into a right-out terrible person.

Picking him up by the neck probably didn't help but it sent a certain message that was needed.

[thudfromafar]

OP, I used to be very much like you, and still kind of am. And while I have been bullied, usually it's been more of a "taking advantage of" than an outright bullying. But there has been a lot of good advice in this thread, I read all of it -- thanks to those who have contributed. I specifically loved post #9 and bookmarked it to read whenever I'm feeling this way. In my experience, what he said in this post is very accurate, and it is amazing when it proves to be true.

I think you know that you definitely have to quit this band, it's probably not salvageable at this point. The thing is... now you use the advice in this thread to improve and be prepared as a person more equipped to handle this issue in the future. Many people are ruthless, so we have to learn how to deal with those people. As Alfred said to Bruce Wayne: "Some men just want to watch the world burn."

[thudfromafar]

Oh yeah. One more thing.

I'm taking a class on middle school education. This is exactly how middle schoolers act.
Think of it that way... Some people never pass the 6th grade.

It usually seems to be as simple as insecurity and immaturity.

[FreshTrooperXBL]

Wow. Not too far off from my own situation really. I also feel shy, quiet, and in general the underdog, "just the bassist", etc etc feeling all the time. You'll see that most of what they point out is meaningless and will be forgotten 5 minutes after the practice/rehearsal/gig is over. Use academics & reasoning to your advantage. Speak the truth and say it often in many ways. They will understand

[bwardmusic]

Well guys -- I quit. The feedback here helped me see this group of people are not my style.

Today actually. I helped out the group until they got some decent paying gigs on the horizon. I also sort of intentionally made myself unavailable for a gig so they could find a sub. The guy rehearsed with them once and did a satisfactory job, so they have someone in the wings to replace me. And then I resigned via a nice, private, facebook message indicating I was open to talking to anyone who wanted to -- about transition issues. I got most of my equipment back at the last gig, and one of the guys in that group is in my jazz band, and so he has a vested interest in staying on good terms with me about my share of some speakers we bought.

I have mixed feelings. I invested two years with these guys, and we've had a couple fun gigs. But I realized I only really enjoyed myself when I was on stage playing...Rehearsals, setting up, or coordination of what we were going to do, where we play, how we split money -- these guys made it the wild west. I dreaded even having a conversation with them, and there was always tension among different members over different things during gig set up.

I should have left a year ago when it became obvious they didn't know how to get a band out of the basement and earning money. And I'm glad I don't have to put up with a lot of stuff now -- disrespect, outrageous volumes they would not turn down, a keyboard player who always overpowers my bass with his wandering left hand, bossy people when we are setting up, and the fact that they are not tight musically -- and don't seem to want to improve.

Also, in preparation for quitting, I worked myself into a killer Jazz trio with guys that are all professionals and have the same kinds of values I do, so I still have two bands -- both of them in a genre I love and who treat each other with respect. I set that up before I left the rock group from which I resigned today. The trio guys are way better than I am musically, and it's challenging me to grow as a musician and improvisor on bass -- something that wasn't happening in the rock group. It was tough was for a while there with three bands but I was setting myself up for a satisfactory exit.

My family is ecstatic because a) they detested the bad, loud music from the rock group and b) they never hear me complain about the musicians in the jazz groups.

So, thanks for your input. The lesson I learned from this band is that having the right personalities is key for the band. People can improve their musicianship fairly quickly under the right circumstances and motivation; bad personalities are like pesticides to a growing band. And this is the last time I invest 1.5 years in getting a band off the ground.

[fdeck]

Congrats!

[Winfred]

@ the OP: You get what you tolerate.

Congrats on quitting! Move on and have fun.

[MarkMgibson]

Yeah, life's too short. Best of luck with your next band.

[mboogiemanusa]

Thanks for the update....hope it all works out. The point seems to be that the caliber of the people you hang with are much more important then their musical ability.

[bwardmusic]

For me the musical ability AND the calibre of people are both important. In this rock group, I think both elements were in a deficit position. There is so much more than being able to play your instrument -- you gotta be able to play in time, take feedback from the group, stay in your part of the sonic real estate, and play at the right volume. Everything after the hyphen was missing from two of the raunchiest members.

I feel so relieved...on to better stuff!!! Thanks again everyone for the support!!

[bassplayer8953]

In my musical world, I, first and foremost, jam with others because I enjoy it: learning and perfecting songs, as well as the camaraderie that goes with it.

I don't make enough money (at music) for there to be financial concerns to leaving a situation, so, for me, at the 1st sign of bullying or other non-good-natured banter, this would be me:

Say what? Did you actually: XXXXXXXXX ...? (Give a chance to take it back)...

Your house or space: Get out. Take your gear and leave...now. Any of the rest of you have a problem with that? You can leave too. Joe will be replaced. I can just as easily run an ad for 2...your choice. If not your space: Ok, I'm done. This is my last time with Joe. Those who want to continue with me, let me know. Those who choose to stay: good luck...I'm outta here.

Life's too short to deal with bullies and jerks. I've seen things like this get started, and continue; it never ends well. Get out at the 1st sign.

[bwardmusic]

Yeah...still in kind of withdrawal...I put two years into the thing and although I know its the best thing to leave, I kick myself that I didn't leave sooner and will miss the 20% of the experience -- playing in front of crowds who are into it.

All that time wasted, family doing with out me etcetera. However, one must look forward to the future and all the interesting things going on there. I still have two bands, and the people and musicianship is head and shoulders of the last one....thanks again guys.

This experience has also taught me its time to cut my losses in another essentially volunteer context where there is arrogance and lack of respect. Not band-related, but community related. I will be exiting from that soon.

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by bwardmusic

Yeah...still in kind of withdrawal...I put two years into the thing and although I know its the best thing to leave, I kick myself that I didn't leave sooner and will miss the 20% of the experience -- playing in front of crowds who are into it.

All that time wasted, family doing with out me etcetera. However, one must look forward to the future and all the interesting things going on there. I still have two bands, and the people and musicianship is head and shoulders of the last one....thanks again guys.

This experience has also taught me its time to cut my losses in another essentially volunteer context where there is arrogance and lack of respect. Not band-related, but community related. I will be exiting from that soon.

You should never view it as "time wasted" - it's all good experience, and no doubt you learned from it. It's like people who date a gorgeous girl for 2 years, and then whine that they wasted two years of their lives". How on Earth is that a waste!!?

[Stumbo]

Originally Posted by bwardmusic

All that time wasted....

Nah. It's lessons learned.

Thing is, the older you get, you have to decide on stuff in much shorter time frames because you look at it as "what % of my time left should I spend on this project?" 1 year, 2 years...nope...more like 1 week or 2 weeks? more like one day or two...

Wish I had learned that a long time ago.

In addition, with kids, that's a one shot deal...relationships are built on how much time you spend with them....IME, the "quality time" crowd is full of it. It's how MUCH time you can spend with the kids, not how little of it and get by. They need your presence.

Good luck!

[walterw]

like the saying goes, "if you can't change the people around you"--and you can't, i think we all should have learned that by now--"then change the people around you."