band drama, what should I do?

kennydakid · #1 02-21-2013, 09:33 PM

Hey guys, some of you may have read a little about my band drama in the stage presence thread, starting around page 4... again sorry about the hijack. But the drama is definitely deeper than what was discussed there. I am wondering if you guys can help guide me and give me an idea of what I should do. Sorry in advance about the long post.

I've been playing bass for a little over 1 year now. I began playing because a friend of mine was putting together a band and he couldn't find a bassist. Prior to playing bass I had played drums for 15 years. For much of that time I played drums in a band with the guitarist/singer of my current project. That band folded when our bassist didn't show up for a couple of gigs in the course of 1 year and the guitarist/singer decided that we'd be better off without him. I agreed that we should move forward without him but we just couldn't find anyone to take his place and the band broke up. At that point I told him that I was done playing in bands for a while. I had started my own law practice earlier that year and I wanted to focus on that.

Fast forward 3 months to January 2012. My friend had joined a band (in the capacity of a guitarist only) but things fell apart with that group and he decided he wanted to start a new group. He found another guitarist and a drummer but was having trouble getting a bassist. He contacted me and asked if I would be willing to learn bass and fill in until they could find a permanent solution so that he could get the project off the ground. I decided to give it a go.

This group was a rock group, think grungy bluesy rock. We built up a set of originals and worked them up. Early on the guitarist/vocalist would feed me bass lines and tell me what to play. Eventually we parted ways with the other guitarist and became a trio. As I grew more proficient on bass I started to present ideas which were mostly shot down out of hand. We booked a few shows and got things up and running.

Lately there's been some friction between me and the guitarist/vocalist. He kept saying I was withdrawing from the group and I felt he was pushing away from me. After shows he would tell me I need to act more like a bassist and he would proceed to tell me all of the parts I screwed up. He was being very critical of my performance.

Over the past month we have been working on an EP. This is our first "professional recording." We had gone to studios before but it was always to make a 2 or 3 track demo and the instruments were usually tracked live with very little overdubs. Our drummer, who went to school for Sound Recording Technology is recording it with a buddy of his who works at a studio. We laid down the drums, the guitarist insisted that I not be around when he laid down the guitar tracks. I went in to record the bass tracks last week. The guitarist said he was going to come by, but he decided against it at the last minute.

We played a show on friday night, which led to my posting in the stage presence forum based on some comments the guitarist made to me. I tried to address my concerns with him all weekend but he did not answer my texts or return my calls.

Eventually he texted me monday saying, "we need to talk about band stuff" I called him right back and got everything off my chest about how I don't need to play in this band and his overly critical attitude was making it not fun to play. He always has a condescending tone when he says things to me too. I told him that if it doesn't change and if I don't feel like I am an equal voice in the band I am out. I really enjoy the music but its tough to enjoy playing with him right now. We talked about the moving on stage thing i addressed in the other thread and he basically left it that "we will agree to disagree".

Yesterday he was recording vocals. I was in court down the street and decided to stop by to see what was up and to pay my share of the recording costs. Once the vocalist realized I was there he got more moody and withdrawn. he acted weird around me and I really didn't feel welcome, so i left. I didn't want to stick around and keep a dark cloud looming over the recording.

I called the drummer today and talked to him about it. He told me the guitarist and him had a talk where they discussed my conversation. Apparently there are a whole slew of issues that the guitarist has that are effecting our vibe and relationship. ranging from the fact that he thinks my wife hates him, to the way our old band ended to "talent" and the fact that I have only played bass for 1 year. The drummer is of the mind that the guitarist and I need to work these things out and leave him out of it (he has kind of been in the middle of it). I don't blame the drummer for feeling that way.

I just don't know what I should do. I feel that I already laid out my concerns on Monday, I called the guitarist and said my piece. He didn't say much and didn't say anything at all like he the stuff he said to the drummer. I have known this guy for 16 years, since I was 12 years old. One thing I know is that he shys away from confrontation. I on the other hand am not afraid of confrontation, I am a criminal defense attorney, I get paid to argue. I don't want to come across as too pushy and too forceful but I am concerned that if I don't force the issue the guitarist will never do it. He will just let things fester and let this rift stand. The drummer told him to talk to me about this, but I don't know if he will.

If it wasn't for the friendship, and the fact that I am a groomsman in his wedding in August, and he was one in mine last year, it would be a no brainer. I would walk from this situation and move on.

I just want to get some guidance from you guys.

Thanks for reading this and I look forward to your responses to my poorly written post

two fingers · #2 02-21-2013, 09:42 PM

You need to talk again. This time in person. You need to do it away from instruments or the drummer. Maybe have him over to the house. Perhaps if your wife had dinner with the two of you before you went into another room to talk, that would put to rest some of his concerns about her as well.

Honestly, I don't think it will work. The guy seems like a total head case (one of those "tortured artist" types"...... nut job). But, you are the bigger man. And you need to continue to be that. At least you will be able to say later that you tried everything possible to make it work. But, unfortunately, I don't think there is any reasoning with the guy. If he doesn't have any "real" reasons to be tense around you, he seems to make them up out of thin air. How do you argue, debate, reason, or even negotiate with that? But try anyway. It's worth a shot after all that work on the project and years of friendship.

mellowinman · #3 02-21-2013, 09:44 PM

Bottom line is, that guy sucks as a frontman, and needs to work a lot harder on his own issues than worrying about you. I would make damn sure all of this gets discussed, and resolved. It doesn't sound like you want to walk away, so then don't. But you need to find a way to get open, clear communication going between you two, or nothing good is going to happen. Does your wife hate him? Does she have any reason to? I think it's important you consider all the things you have mentioned, and address each and every one of them.

two fingers · #4 02-21-2013, 09:50 PM

Mellow does bring up a good point. DOES your wife have issues with the guy? If so, is there a REASON for them? That would be the kicker for me. My wife could get along with a lamp post. If you can't get along with her, then I'm out. She's no Yoko and would never try to force me to leave a band. But I can always find another band. I can't find another perfect woman. Most of 'em are even more nuts than your front man!

kennydakid · #5 02-21-2013, 09:56 PM

We had some issues in the past. I met my wife because of him (My wife is his cousin). He said some things at the beginning of my relationship with my wife over 10 years ago now that were not that flattering and were insulting. We worked through a lot of that that goes back to when we were 18 years old. She has had some issues with the way he has been talking to me lately, and I think she'd prefer if I was not in a band with him but she doesn't hate him. I think she is just tired of this situation.

I will say that I have always tried to be a man and confront him when I have an issue. After he told me to "act more like a bassist" after our last show, I drove home (about an hour away) and sent a text to the other guys saying that we need to discuss some things as a band. The guitarist avoided talking to me for 2 days even though I texted him and called him. The drummer texted me back right away. I will say that the Drummer is on my side on a lot of the little things but he is trying to play the role of Switzerland and stay neutral.

kennydakid · #6 02-21-2013, 10:00 PM

She is also tired of the "originals band" thing. At least when we played in a cover band together I was paid. I would make a little extra money and we played shows locally. She could go to them and hang out with all her friends and have a great time.

Now we travel to Boston, I make nothing, and she, instead of sitting at home alone, comes along and watches bored by the situation because none of her friends want to come out and see us play.

two fingers · #7 02-21-2013, 10:01 PM

Since you asked, I'm going to just throw some stuff out. You have a career, and a wife. You seem to have a good life going there. Do you need this hassle? I have no idea what the music scene is like in your area, but I feel like you can hook up with some guys to play with. Again, I would still give an open, honest discussion a shot. But I still don't think it will work. And this thing is probably dragging you down a bit. That's why your wife doesn't care for it. There's just no reason for a part-time band to be a drag. Something that should be fun is dragging you down. So, what is the upside to this project for you anyway?

zachoff · #8 02-21-2013, 10:09 PM

Life's too short to deal with that stuff, man. Move on before you lose a friend.

kennydakid · #9 02-21-2013, 10:10 PM

the upside is playing with the drummer really. I really like playing with the drummer, he is a really great player and we've had a connection. He likes playing with me because I come from a drum background and I can really follow what he is doing. I told him tonight that if this band implodes I wouldn't mind starting another project with him.

I also enjoy the music itself. I am trying to find a group of people to jam with from time to time (just to play more with other people to work on my skills).

I also just dropped $233 on this recording. Its not a lot of money but at this point, whats mine is hers and whats hers is mine. She doesnt agree with spending money on something which will lead to nothing. In her eyes the band is going nowhere for a number of reasons. Most of which have been noted in this and the other thread.

kennydakid · #10 02-21-2013, 10:14 PM

Life is too short, but I also think I am in too deep. Either way, this is going to screw up something.

We've been drifting apart since college, I went away to Iowa and he stayed in Massachusetts but we always did the band when I would come back over summer and winter break. Then when I was in law school we played together a lot and played some decent paying gigs. At this point, if we didn't play together, I don't know if we'd even talk anymore. We don't have much in common except music, and we root for the same sports teams.

capnhank · #11 02-21-2013, 10:20 PM

A couple of things:

Happy wife = happy life

Reading your posts, it sounds to me more like you're just jamming with some dudes rather than playing in a band. Bands have a certain amount of camaraderie, right? Sure, cover bands can be more like a business, but you're doing originals? You guys should have each others' backs, especially if you've been friends for a long time. If it doesn't feel that way, then you and your drummer should find another frontman. Hell, a good rhythm section is hard to find!

I wish you luck!

kennydakid · #12 02-21-2013, 10:28 PM

Yeah, I know what your saying. I think what has happened is that the guitarist has, because he's afraid of conflict, let a lot of little things boil over into a big mess. I know that my lack of playing ability bugs him but I try to remind him of where he was 1 year into playing guitar. He has apparently talked to the drummer about that and said he wants to replace me with someone who is a better bassist. I just kind of wish he was more forthcoming with me. My playing in the band started off as temporary but seems to have become rather permanent.
He is also having trouble relinquishing control over the songs and the song writing process. He likes to write every thing (guitars, bass vocals) and present it to the drummer and I and the drummer kind of filters it into the final structure. I dont get too much leway with bass parts because he doesn't really trust me to write much of anything.

carvinbassplyr · #13 02-21-2013, 10:36 PM

This is a rough situation. I was the "other guy" in a similar situation with the band I currently play for. The former bassist and the frontman had been friends for decades. The bass player had been in every inception if the frontman's band throughout the years so there was a lot of history there. Unfortunately when the time came that the frontman wanted to go full-time, the bass player couldn't hack it. Part of it was because the front man had found a more relevant/modern sound that the bass player didn't care for (he is stuck in the early 90's) and part if it was that he just didn't have the chops, especially in the studio. When I came into the picture as a fill in, the pressure was really put on the other bass player to get his act together and the frontman really wrestled with letting him go. When he started lashing out at other band mates and melted down in the studio, I was finally brought on full time. Basically the creative differences were causing space between the two of them, but now that they're not in a band together they have worked it out and are better friends. I really think that you guys can't function in a band together anymore and it's wearing on you friendship. I say ditch the band and save the relationship if possible.

kennydakid · #14 02-21-2013, 10:45 PM

Thanks for all the posts guys. I need to get some sleep, this has been keeping me awake lately. I just wish he would come right out and say his issues to me instead of talking to other people about it, even over the phone. At least, though I do go to online forums, I still say what I want to say to him. I feel that, by talking to him on Monday, I have put the ball in his court to come to me with his concerns. Until last show I really felt like everything was fine, then all of this kind of came out of left field to me. I knew some of it was there under the surface, but I didn't think there was a problem or anything, and I didn't know about some of these issues until I talked to the Drummer tonight, who relayed to me some of what the guitarist said.

soitainly · #15 02-21-2013, 11:14 PM

I am sorry to hear that you are in this situation, there isn't an easy out. First, long term friendships are hard to come by, so I can see why you don't want to burn that bridge. It sounds like the guy is being unfair though. He asked you to learn a new instrument because he couldn't find a bass player, and you took up the challenge. For him to think that you would be a master in one years time is really a stretch, especially since you have a career and a wife.

I guess the best thing you could do is just say you understand that he wants to move faster than your present abilities allow. You don't really want to lose a friend, and it sounds like that could end up being the case if you try to continue as is. I wouldn't think that staying in a band where you aren't appreciated is going to be a good thing for anyone. You can't always make things work out, even with the best of intentions.

Munjibunga · #16 02-22-2013, 12:23 AM

Ask him if he'd be more comfortable without you in the band. If his response is limp, bail. I'd only stay in that situation if he would acknowledge my issues and go at least half way to resolve them.

Downunderwonder · #17 02-22-2013, 12:29 AM

I think you need to ask your wife what her take is. Tell her you want the band to work and see that she is truely fine with that. Then do dinner as proposed.

Violen · #18 02-22-2013, 12:31 AM

Get your copy of the ep and get out.

kennydakid · #19 02-22-2013, 05:29 AM

thinking about this in real terms I guess my biggest issue right now is whether I should push the confrontation, and therefore make it known to the guitarist that the drummer and I talked about this issue (because honestly I had no idea about a lot of the guitarist's issues with me) or do I wait for him to approach me, and risk that he will deal with this like everything else where he just avoids the necessary confrontation?

I know that some type of discussion is necessary but I am in an awkward place. I pushed to talk on monday. I did all the talking, he just said, "valid point" or "we'll agree to disagree". He didn't talk at all. Then he turned around and told the drummer, "Kenny made all these demands about wanting more control, or he's out" to which the drummer responded, "no, he just wants to have a voice, he just wants to feel like an equal member and you need to stop coming across as such a condescending ******* when you critique his playing." guitarist told the drummer he'd be nicer. Its not about niceness, I argue with people all day for a living, he doesn't need to be nice. He could be truthful and lay things out there if he really has problems without being condescending. I just don't know if he really understands what said to him either. Sometimes I get the feeling that he just yeses me to make me stop talking.

pklima · #20 02-22-2013, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kennydakid

He has apparently talked to the drummer about that and said he wants to replace me with someone who is a better bassist. I just kind of wish he was more forthcoming with me. My playing in the band started off as temporary but seems to have become rather permanent.

I'd tell him straight up to replace me with another bassist he likes better if he can. I think you have the personality to do that. If he can replace you, then honestly I think you both win. He's got the bassist he wants and you're out of a lousy situation and free to find a band that will let you do what you want (for example, join the I Back A Hot Singerbabe club). And if he can't, it's up to you whether to stay or quit, but honestly, odds are you'd be better off quitting anyway.

I've told my boss in a serious corporate job to go talk to the big boss and tell him to fire me if I can't do something the way he wants. In a meeting in front of other people, too, and it was a planned strategy and not a moment of anger. It's a pretty confrontational thing to do, but it got him to behave better and I'm still here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kennydakid

Life is too short, but I also think I am in too deep.

About being deep, I'll just quote Jive from another thread...

Quote:

Originally Posted by jive1

Well, you can be in a 2 foot hole, a 6 foot hole, or a 12 foot hole. But, they're all holes right?

First rule of holes:
When you're in one, stop digging...........