Band, and equipment, related question

Reinhardt Amps · #1 02-25-2008, 01:35 PM

Has anyone ever played with a bass player who just feels its completely unneeded for him to have any kind of amp ? I mean an amp on stage. He plugs into the pa direct, and feels that he doesnt need to have any kind of amp on stage, and its hard to hear him on stage unless he is the loudest thing in the house mix, or unless we put him in the monitors, and he would have to be the loudest thing in the monitors. Im just not getting the opposition to having some kind of amp on stage for stage volume purposes. I understand bass is not really directional, but it doesnt travel backwards (from the pa to us) very well, at least in my opinion. Am i being a dickhead, or is this normal? I really feel he needs something on stage. Ive never seen a band that didnt actually, but maybe im just stupid? Im sure with a big enough situation (rush for instance) they have enough budgeted for monitors, it really doesnt matter. If the drummer cant hear him, how do they lock in solid and tight?

Phalex · #2 02-25-2008, 01:47 PM

The only times that I have ever played without a bass rig behind me on stage has been on really big stages. All of them outdoor festivals or opening for bigger acts. At outdoor festivals in the summer time especially, I really can't lug my bass rig from whatever meager parking may be provided to the stage. I just bring my bass and a DI and have the sound guy fix me up with a monitor. (They always have plenty of big monitors at these things.)

I'm not a fan of this arrangement, but I find it does work if I have to play an hour set and get in and out quickly.

I'm thinking if it's not his PA, he should have an amp.

Reinhardt Amps · #3 02-25-2008, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phalex

The only times that I have ever played without a bass rig behind me on stage has been on really big stages. All of them outdoor festivals or opening for bigger acts. At outdoor festivals in the summer time especially, I really can't lug my bass rig from whatever meager parking may be provided to the stage. I just bring my bass and a DI and have the sound guy fix me up with a monitor. (They always have plenty of big monitors at these things.)

I'm not a fan of this arrangement, but I find it does work if I have to play an hour set and get in and out quickly.

I'm thinking if it's not his PA, he should have an amp.

We all own parts of the pa, so that doesnt matter as much to me.
BTW, I like your sig quote

four2oh · #4 02-25-2008, 01:58 PM

i do plenty of gigs with out an amp on-stage. but when i do, i make sure i use a good pre/di (sansamp bddi) and that the PA has good sub[s] (and a good cross-over, and subharmonic synth like an aphex 204) and that the monitor i would be using (as the bassist) has at least a 12" in it. depending on the size and resonance of the room, would determine whether or not both bass monitor and/or the sub are needed (usually our soundman will only have sub running during our shows, unless i'm in sound hole dead-zone and need to have the bass monitor cranked up to compensate when those lovely low frequencies aren't reaching my ears).

gismo · #5 02-25-2008, 02:01 PM

Having equipment is just one of those essential parts of being in a band. It separates the professionals from the amateurs. If he feels he doesn't need an amp, well, he might not be serious enough about the project. I mean, come on, even a little combo would do, they could still DI that.

bikeplate · #6 02-25-2008, 02:04 PM

HI

Ive tried it twice. Once with my rock/dance cover band, once at the church I play at. There is absolutely no substition for some type of bass amp for the stage. Everybody likes it better. The soundman, drummer, ME!!

Gives everyone the sense of some "bounce" on stage, too. Some groove, if you will. No amp just doesnt cut it for me and believe me I've tried it both times for an extended period of time.

Rob

DonovanBankhead · #7 02-25-2008, 03:34 PM

I've done it both ways, and I gotta say I prefer having an amp on stage, even if it's a small combo. I always seem to have a difficult time getting a good mix at most places I've played at. Plus, the vibration from the amp helps to keep my touch light...

Eric Moesle · #8 02-25-2008, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gismo

Having equipment is just one of those essential parts of being in a band. It separates the professionals from the amateurs.

YOU ARE SOOOOO WRONG. More pro's than amateurs go direct to the PA and don't use an amp onstage. Most major acts these days, actually.

Rush? No stage amp. Peter Gabriel/Tony Levin? No stage amp. Either they use in-ear monitors or they have the bass fed through the monitors.

Lots of people here on these forums that use in-ears and a DI. I do on some gigs, depending on the venue. The rest of the band each have their own monitor mixes and can mix in the amount of bass that they want. It actually sounds better out front in most circumstances since the soundman isn't fighting the stage volume and stage resonances.

Reinhardt Amps · #9 02-25-2008, 05:29 PM

its hard to compare a small, 200 person gig, to say, Rush...... I would venture to guess their budget for monitors alone is more than our whole band has into gear.

BTW, ive been to a bunch of pro shows the last year, on stage with my guitar amp customers, and except for 1, all of them had bass rigs live on stage. Yes they were direct into the pa, but their stage rig was live.

For the average small time working in a medium sized bar type band, the monitor situation isnt quite as good as it would be for a major/pro level act.

Rattman · #10 02-25-2008, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkb

I've done it both ways, and I gotta say I prefer having an amp on stage, even if it's a small combo. I always seem to have a difficult time getting a good mix at most places I've played at. Plus, the vibration from the amp helps to keep my touch light...

Ditto... we have also given that a 'go' only to find that the monitor mix becomes so incrediably muddy.. no matter how much tweaking, re-patching, channel-isolating we try. Not to mention the strain it poses on the stage monitors. I vote for "bass rig always!"

modulusman · #11 02-25-2008, 05:36 PM

I don't know if your bass player is just being cheap or what. But if the PA is good enough you don't need a bass amp. It could be worse he could bring an svt to every job and crank it

bikeplate · #12 02-25-2008, 05:37 PM

HI

Yea. Im sure Peter Gabriels tour is a bit more sophisticated than my cover band and church setup

Rob

Reinhardt Amps · #13 02-25-2008, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by modulusman

I don't know if your bass player is just being cheap or what. But if the PA is good enough you don't need a bass amp. It could be worse he could bring an svt to every job and crank it

Our pa is fine, i jsut dont see it being the ideal thing. maybe im wrong. Without him being the loudest thing in the mix, it jsut seems messed up for him and the drummer to not be able to groove.
BTW, i went to college in Bozeman. A good friend of mine works at Gibsons acoustic shop too, at least he did a few years ago.
I miss Montana.

Eric Moesle · #14 02-25-2008, 06:34 PM

If the drummer has a decent monitor, there is no reason they can't groove.

Listen, if you have a decent PA and the bass is going through the PA, any bass amp onstage is simply a stage monitor. If everyone on stage has their own monitor at their feet anyway, a bass-amp-as-monitor is superfluous. Even more so when the bass is going though a DI to the board, then to the amp. The people out front aren't hearing the amp anyway.

Everyone has a monitor at their feet and you want ONE MORE monitor blaring up there?

I play in a classic rock cover band that plays 200 seat bars. Sometimes I use a bass amp FOR MY PLEASURE and sometimes I use in-ears with no amp. I can tell you that every single time I leave the amp at home, the bass sounds better out front and my bandmates have no problems hearing me or "grooving with" me through their monitors. Foregoing the onstage bass rig actually works out BETTER with the small places than the large venues.

bikeplate · #15 02-25-2008, 06:37 PM

HI

I simple disagree, Eric. The people do hear your amp, especially near the stage, and you can mix it along with the PA in most smaller venues.

Rob

LowEnder2112 · #16 02-25-2008, 06:46 PM

i've only gone once without my rig at a 200 person bar, and although people in the crowd said it sounded good, i felt so weak without a big rig backing me up

bikeplate · #17 02-25-2008, 06:52 PM

HI

Dont get me wrong. Im not talking about a huge amp with all sorts of power. Most of my shows are done with a 2x10 and a400 watt amp. Bigger stages get an additional cab and the amp goes to 4ohm, 600 watts. Volume knob on the amp is about 10 o'clock!! Its not that loud. What it does is give me and the drummer some bounce so we can concentrate on vocals, which really matters(BTW). We are old guys and our stage volume is way low compared to most any band out there

Rob

chucko58 · #18 02-25-2008, 07:23 PM

I hang out on a sound engineers' forum as well. They really like the bassists who don't have a stage rig, it dramatically simplifies their job. But you have to have a good monitor setup. They talk about using in-ear monitors, but I suspect I wouldn't like it. I need to feel the vibrations. The drummer can use a "buttshaker" throne to get the vibe, but what can a standing bassist use?

Reinhardt Amps · #19 02-25-2008, 08:28 PM

I dont bass in my vocal monitor. Screw that. if its there, its covering up what i need the monitor for, hearing me and the other guys who need to sing, sing. Where is the crime in having a small combo for a stage bass monitor? If i showed up for a gig with nothing but a di for my guitar, id be ashamed.... Id actually rather just not play to be honest. Why have all kinds of good equipment, and be totally at the mercy of the sound guy as far as how you sound?
Sorry, I really just dont see it as being better. I guess its probably workable, but better?

Reinhardt Amps · #20 02-25-2008, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chucko58

I hang out on a sound engineers' forum as well. They really like the bassists who don't have a stage rig, it dramatically simplifies their job. But you have to have a good monitor setup. They talk about using in-ear monitors, but I suspect I wouldn't like it. I need to feel the vibrations. The drummer can use a "buttshaker" throne to get the vibe, but what can a standing bassist use?

This is generally because sound guys could give a **** less about tone, and just want a mix, irrelevant of how it sounds. Ive known far too mnay sound guys who know zero, zip zilch about tone. Major touring pros, to locals, didnt matter. as long as something doesnt feedback, they are happy