Band manager- help from experienced musician

[wolffman]

One of my bands has been approached by a local booking agent and band manager and wants to represent us. He has recently booked a few shows for us locally and is starting to book for us regionally… his production company has recently been getting a lot of exposure. It seems like a great opportunity and he seems anxious/excited to work with us. The basic point of his pitch was as your manager I will care more about your success than I would if I was only your booking agent and with a manager it will let you focus on the music and I’ll focus on the business. My questions are as follows…

What percentage should a booking manager take per show?

What percentage should a manger typically take of all merch, music sales, and shows?

Should we be privy to the contracts? The books? How do we know we are actually getting paid the proper percentage of the full amount he is getting?

Also we were recently booked opening for a really popular national act from the local area. We will be playing a show @ a 1,500 person venue known nationally- the event may or may not sell out. But this is the kind of place I’ve seen my favorite bands. The show is on ticket master and is a live nation event (our first). Our band is supposed to sell 100 tickets @ $18 (no service fees). We will def sell all 100 tickets and probably even more. How much should we be taking home?

He seems trustworthy, and I do not doubt his ability, but I am just curious of industry standards- or other TB’rs experiences.

[sleeplessknight]

Selling tickets == pay-to-play == bad. I personally wouldn't even do the gig, but that's just me.

To answer your question, I've been told that it's not unheard of for a manager to take 10% of profits right off the top. It may be in your interests to wrangle a greater percentage, but taken off of your profits AFTER expenses - gas, equipment, rehearsal space rental, etc)

[DWBass]

Walk away! Walk away fast!

[wolffman]

There is a guarantee that has already been decided. If we don’t sell the tickets there is no negative backlash. We will have 100 people there no problem- even if we didn’t have to sell tickets. But I assume it’s a way to track how many people we had come for us.

Taking a portion of the profits is certainly different than a portion of the revenue...

But if he is taking a larger percentage, doesn't that give him more incentive to book bigger and better shows for us? Push our merch more etc...

[Joe Nerve]

Originally Posted by DWBass

Walk away! Walk away fast!

While my instinct says the same, if the guy's getting you happening gigs that you can't get on your own I say go for it. And my experience has shown me it's not worth getting crazy over a few hundred dollars here and there if you're doing original stuff. If an original band that's starting out earns $100 per man per month, that's a lot. And it's not worth making yourself nuts over. I say consider everything you do now as an investment in the band, be very very careful about anything you sign, and keep your focus on the ultimate goals of the band.

Is this guys name Joe by any chance?

[DWBass]

I don't like it. Why have a manager/Booking agent and you still have to sell your own tickets........of which he will get a cut of? Don't you dare sign any exclusive agreements with this guy. Our band (Top40/Covers) gets bookings by 2 agencies. Depending on the how much the gig pays, their cut is 10%-15%. We are not exclusive nor will we ever be! That allows us to self book when we can. Is this an originals band? If so, you're better off self managing in my honest opinion. I don't dig pay to play deals. Everyone makes money except the band! Be careful, bruh!

[throughthefire]

Originally Posted by wolffman

The basic point of his pitch was as your manager I will care more about your success than I would if I was only your booking agent and with a manager it will let you focus on the music and I’ll focus on the business. My questions are as follows…

What percentage should a booking manager take per show?

What percentage should a manger typically take of all merch, music sales, and shows?

Should we be privy to the contracts? The books? How do we know we are actually getting paid the proper percentage of the full amount he is getting?

Caveat: I don't have experience in the music business with contracts etc, but I work with them everyday as an IT contractor.. and I'm not a lawyer!... anyway...

Assuming, for whatever reason, you don't run away from him as fast as you can...

1. Take references - who else does he manage? Talk to them (everyone!) - are they doing well out of the deal, or feel they're being ripped off? If he manages nationally known acts, that's a better sign than if you're the first band he's managed. And *don't* be the first band he's managed - why should you pay for his learning curve?

2. Contracts - The first thing you tell him is that you'll have your attorney look over every contract. If he get's antsy about that, there's something fishy going on. Ask for a sample contract (no need for the real thing yet), and get it looked over by an attorney who understands music contracts; there will be industry standard terms and conditions in there that a bog standard attorney wouldn't recognize. Do the same with any real contract.

3. Contracts (2) - As he runs a production company as well as trying to manage you, make sure that you keep management and production contracts separate. It's easier to handle any issues that way.

4. Make sure that the contract is between the *band* and the manager, not individual people. I'd even consider setting the band up as an LLC if there is any chance of big money coming in. That way, you as individuals would not be liable - the band would, and it could only be liable to the extent of its assets. The band should then have individual contracts with each band member, detailing their rights, responsibilities and remuneration.

4. Transparency - You should be privy to all contracts that you or your band are a party to, including merchandising etc. If not, then it's not a valid contract. If you agree a standard take with him (through your music attorney, of course) of, say, 10% of all profits (*never* give anyone a cut of anything until all the expenses and taxes have been paid!), then you should be able to inspect all the books and stock to validate what you've been told.

5. Value - Make sure you're getting added-value out of this person. If all he's doing is talking to people that *you* can talk to (assuming you want to do the negotiations), then he's not adding value - he's just a cost. A good manager will earn you far more than you could earn by yourself, and so should (essentially) be free of charge to you. (for example - I pay my debt collection company 25% of the outstanding amounts. Sounds a lot, but I get 75% of an invoice amount which I would probably never have seen otherwise. We both win.)

Hope this is of help. In all things relating to money - don't be afraid to spend some on an attorney.

Pete.

[wolffman]

He most certainly is getting us gigs we never would have gotten ourselves, this is our 5th live show as a 4 piece band- we only added the 4th member in September... and he has us booked at some rather large regional festivals, with late night spots. He also got us this gig I wrote of opening for a very large band in our music scene. He wants to get us integrated in the scene and definitely knows the right people. One member of my band is working with his company managing some smaller bands… and speaks very highly of this managers work ethic, his vision for his production company and bands he represents, business practices, and his connections in the industry. His track record shows that he has done some good stuff for other bands, but only started his own company a short time ago. His company although in its infantile stages is truly blowing up. I guess I’m just looking to be reassured.

Also of the 100 tickets he took 20 of them so he is sharing in the responsibility to sell them as well.

And no his name isn't joe- if you care to knwo the details pm me- i'd be happy to share, just dont want to put the details on blast in a public forum.

[wolffman]

Thanks Pete- I will certainly take a hard look at all of this. He hasn’t mentioned a contract... don’t think the other bands have signed contracts but I'm not certain. Maybe that’s something we should talk about. That’s one of my main concerns is transparency.

Oh and yes we are an originals band, we’ll throw in a cover or two to liven the crowd up, but we are not a covers band.

We are currently making about $400 a month for the band and about $100/month each. He says by this time next year he wants music to be our main source of income, but is also realistic and giving us advice on what our next steps should be. Part of his pitch which was laid back but straightforward was I want to help build you a career not book some gigs for you.

[Ubersheist]

Originally Posted by wolffman

Thanks Pete- I will certainly take a hard look at all of this. He hasn’t mentioned a contract... don’t think the other bands have signed contracts but I'm not certain. Maybe that’s something we should talk about. That’s one of my main concerns is transparency.

Oh and yes we are an originals band, we’ll throw in a cover or two to liven the crowd up, but we are not a covers band.

We are currently making about $400 a month for the band and about $100/month each. He says by this time next year he wants music to be our main source of income, but is also realistic and giving us advice on what our next steps should be. Part of his pitch which was laid back but straightforward was I want to help build you a career not book some gigs for you.

He probably isn't a bad guy. However, you should do a few things....

1. Get a contract. Anything in writing. Write something up on a napkin at a bar, if you have to, but get something in writing and get it signed by both sides.
2. 15% is fairly standard for an agent - more for more experienced agents who get you better gigs (it doesn't sound like you guys are nearly there yet to give him more), less for less experienced agents. Band managers usually get a split about the same amount as a band member, but also you can negotiate it to a fixed amount per month, too. Work these out.
3. A good agent is really worth it. Booking shows is a HUGE pain, and if you find someone who'll do it for you at a reasonable price, DO IT. Then you can focus on your music and your performance. You'll also be perceived as a more legitimate band,
4. It's technically illegal for this guy to be your band manager AND your agent. There's a conflict of interest, so laws were passed. At least it is in California. It happens all the time and it won't be a problem until you start booking bigger shows and festivals. If you guys are really picking up steam, this could really be a problem. Venues/festivals/other bigger touring bands will turn you away. I don't think you need to worry about this in the next few years, though. Also, booking agents need to be licenced in most states. Practically, it's not probably an issue. However, if you guys start booking larger venues (1000+ people), you really, really need a licenced talent agent. If you use this guy as an agent, and not a manager, make sure he's licenced if it's required in your state.

[Drop-the-One]

Originally Posted by DWBass

I don't like it. Why have a manager/Booking agent and you still have to sell your own tickets........of which he will get a cut of? Don't you dare sign any exclusive agreements with this guy. Our band (Top40/Covers) gets bookings by 2 agencies. Depending on the how much the gig pays, their cut is 10%-15%. We are not exclusive nor will we ever be! That allows us to self book when we can. Is this an originals band? If so, you're better off self managing in my honest opinion. I don't dig pay to play deals. Everyone makes money except the band! Be careful, bruh!

Because the other 1400 fans in the audience is a lot of new exposure?

Yes, he should be skeptical and they should know every detail to the last little bit... but selling 100 tickets to play for 1400 extra people in an original band seems a worthy trade-off

but manager doesn't get a dime of the merch sales! Unless he's the one pushing it all night.

To each their own.

[Drop-the-One]

Originally Posted by wolffman

Thanks Pete- I will certainly take a hard look at all of this. He hasn’t mentioned a contract... don’t think the other bands have signed contracts but I'm not certain. Maybe that’s something we should talk about. That’s one of my main concerns is transparency.

Oh and yes we are an originals band, we’ll throw in a cover or two to liven the crowd up, but we are not a covers band.

We are currently making about $400 a month for the band and about $100/month each. He says by this time next year he wants music to be our main source of income, but is also realistic and giving us advice on what our next steps should be. Part of his pitch which was laid back but straightforward was I want to help build you a career not book some gigs for you.

That's great! If you're paying him as your manager, get that guy working at least as hard as you! Best of luck!

[bassbully]

Originally Posted by wolffman

He most certainly is getting us gigs we never would have gotten ourselves, this is our 5th live show as a 4 piece band- we only added the 4th member in September... and he has us booked at some rather large regional festivals, with late night spots. He also got us this gig I wrote of opening for a very large band in our music scene. He wants to get us integrated in the scene and definitely knows the right people. One member of my band is working with his company managing some smaller bands… and speaks very highly of this managers work ethic, his vision for his production company and bands he represents, business practices, and his connections in the industry. His track record shows that he has done some good stuff for other bands, but only started his own company a short time ago. His company although in its infantile stages is truly blowing up. I guess I’m just looking to be reassured.

Also of the 100 tickets he took 20 of them so he is sharing in the responsibility to sell them as well.

And no his name isn't joe- if you care to knwo the details pm me- i'd be happy to share, just dont want to put the details on blast in a public forum.

I dont see a problem here. Get a contract with terms you can agree with. It's not the Promoters problem you have to sell tics, I'm sure its the venue you are booked at and its the norm at allot of them for openers to do so. If you really need the exposure and PR from the gig and know you can sell the tics with a return... do it! Allot of TBers feel thats selling out ....ignore them.
This is your project and if you are getting paid and paying on bigger stages to get press etc, do it. Make sure you are getting some monies for your time and I know it won't always be allot. There is no easy way for an original band to get anywhere unless you bleed and sweat allot. Your not a coverband and to get those better gig's you have to give up some flesh sometimes ..trust me I'm doing it too.

My band sold 80 + tics to open for a national last year and we got all of $100.00 for the efforts. We paid a video company that much to record one song live that night for youtube etc. Was it worth it.. Yes! 10X over. We had a packed house in our city for us, a great video and more PR than we had ever had all to that one show.
I would be happy to have somebody doing the booking for my band and giving them 10% if we were getting bigger rooms and festivals. To tell you the truth between my family, job, band, booking politics make me want to quit playing music sometimes. As much as I love playing I sometimes ask myself are the hassle's and chase of an originals band worth it?

[JohnMCA72]

Understand the difference between an agent & a manager.

An agent is responsible for keeping you busy with paid gigs & gets paid a percentage off the top. 15% is pretty typical. They get paid off the top based on what they sell, because they can't be responsible for your costs, just like any other salesman. Example: Suppose your agent books you a show in the next town for $2000. There are going to be transportation costs & maybe motel room(s) & meals. None of that is under the agent's control, which is why he gets paid first. Suppose again, that your truck breaks & axle & your drummer gets busted in a prostitution sting - again, stuff that the booking agent has no control over. $600 for the axle & $750 to bail out the drummer leaves $650.00. Your agent will have earned $600, not $97.50, because the misfortunes weren't his fault. You're going to have a net to the band for all your trouble of $50, not $552.50.

A manager, on the other hand, will & should be responsible for the total operation of the enterprise. He may get a fixed salary, or he may get a share after expenses (including "contingencies"), or even a guaranteed minimum plus bonus if certain conditions are met. That's totally appropriate, because part of his job should be to make sure that contingencies don't happen, or at least that you're ready for them. You also want to be sure he has incentive to be frugal with your money!

Another way to look at the difference is that the agent sets up the gig, while the manager makes sure you all get there, on time, ready to perform the show.

Contracts that specify what everybody is going to do & expect from each other are vital! I always say, the best time to find out that somebody intends to screw me is when they balk at signing a contract!

[Muttleybass]

Originally Posted by wolffman

What percentage should a booking manager take per show?.

An agent can get as much as 10 - 15 %, depending if there's a guarantee. A manager had better be doing something spectacular to get more than that. If a MANAGER gets you $2000 per show, once a week, he might even get 50%. Basically, it comes down to how much he earns his keep.

Originally Posted by wolffman

What percentage should a manger typically take of all merch, music sales?

At your level? None. When you start playing arenas, you might start running into a situation where the VENUE gets a cut, which will suck, but you'll be wiser by then. If you're just starting out in an original band, you guys will be lucky to walk away with a few hundred bucks to split between you.

Originally Posted by wolffman

Should we be privy to the contracts? The books? How do we know we are actually getting paid the proper percentage of the full amount he is getting??

Absolutely. If you don't get to see the books, run away NOW.

Originally Posted by wolffman

Also we were recently booked opening for a really popular national act from the local area. We will be playing a show @ a 1,500 person venue known nationally- the event may or may not sell out. But this is the kind of place I’ve seen my favorite bands. The show is on ticket master and is a live nation event (our first). Our band is supposed to sell 100 tickets @ $18 (no service fees). We will def sell all 100 tickets and probably even more. How much should we be taking home???

That depends on the agreement. Is there a guarantee? (A set price for the gig?) 100 tickets, to me, is unreasonable. What happens if you don't do it? Do you have to buy all the tickets at a set price, then sell them and keep the difference? I've had experiences where a band gets $2 off a $10 ticket and that's their wage and they get to keep their merch. You'd better clarify. You do NOT want to be on the hook for unsold tickets.

Originally Posted by wolffman

He seems trustworthy, and I do not doubt his ability, but I am just curious of industry standards- or other TB’rs experiences.

Do NOT sign anything long term. If you have a manager you should never have to pay to play. Never agree to paying a manager anything but a percentage of the work he gets you. There are shysters that will charge you a monthy fee instead. BAD MOJO. No way a manager should make more than you do for giving you a show. (I said MANAGER, not PROMOTER).

Managers are never trustworthy. Proceed with caution.

Every gig is different. Sometimes the only way you'll make a dime is off the merch, other times you might get a $1000 guarantee. Sometimes they'll give you tickets and you get to keep what you sell them for. Just be careful.

[travep]

I don't have experience (other than with contracts) with being involved with these situations. However, based on the $$ you mentioned, something sounds funny.

If the band is generating less than $1,000 per month, why do you need a manager?

I totally see need for a booking agent (sales). I see some real value in a publicist (marketing). I don't see at this point you have a lot to "manage". I would strongly heed the advice to form an LLC if you are at the point where you're getting involved in band contacts...it will limit liability and it's not that expensive.

A manager, in my very limited perspective, should be out there "managing" interview requests and logistics of getting your gear from A to B and dealing with static arising after the "sales" and "marketing" departments have begun generating overhead that's getting in the way of you doing gigs & generating new product. Maybe there's some of this already you haven't elaborated upon yet...