Band Meeting - Lowered the Boom

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by ChrisB2

I think the first post really did have "liking or disliking music" at its heart. Just look at mellow's last post...

Mellow, whatever you may have said in this thread previously, your last post made it plain that you're interested in playing songs you like and are not too interested in playing songs you don't like. You and the drummer are butting heads on it, to the point of being ready to "pop" him over it!! This leads me to believe that your rule was invented to stifle the drummer and let your song preferences rise to the fore, since you would have some sway over the other two members, your wife and the young guitar player, and the drummer would have to solicit one of you three to sing his choices...

Why not just get rid of the drummer, if you three are so out of sync with him? Why go this route with the rule construction that is so obviously meant to marginalize him?

But like I told you before, I do think you guys should do Whipping Post. Great song.

There. Still like me?

=======

P.S., I do think you should get some musical gratification, and I ain't got no problem with you wanting to do your song choices.... I'm just saying it appears to me that the "Rule" is really more about getting your way than it is about being a fair process for ALL of your bandmates.

If you and your drummer are that far apart musically, it's probably better just to part ways. As I said earlier, our band has a veto system, but we all have fairly similar tastes, so it's never a huge problem. Often we'll trade off - I'll play this song if you play that one - but it's always a case of playing songs we can all live with, not songs we really can't stand.

Regards,
MarkM

[mellowinman]

Yeah, you guys are right. The drummer came right out and said, "I don't want to play Classic Rock any more," and I said, "your wish is my command, Sahib."

I feel we've been through enough drummers at this point in time that we don't have to care about that any more. We used a fill in last year, around this time, and that show was great, because the guy was a top pro. Saturday, we are rehearsing with the new fill-in. He probably won't join, because he's a band whore, and he doesn't want to be as involved, musically as we all are, but then again, I won't close my mind off until we've played a show.

I'm in the "whatever happens happens" mentality with this thing, because, let's face it: when you play covers only, you should be compensated, and nowadays, at least in this town, you really do make squat.

I can get $1,000.00 for a few hours work photographing a wedding, and I don't have to carry any gear.

And I'd be home by 10 or 11.

I never played covers to make extra money.

I did it primarily because my wife wanted me to, and I decided if I was going to do it, I was going to make sure I enjoyed it, and sometimes I do.

Sometimes I really, really DO.

[ChrisB2]

Good luck dude......

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by mellowinman

There will be no discussion, or opinions given. We will work up whatever songs anyone wants to sing, and only after mastering them will we decide whether they make the set list, SHOW BY SHOW.

Not the most sensible policy I've ever encountered...

In fact, it sounds like a potential massive waste of time...unless the purpose is simply to learn as many songs as possible, as indiscriminately as possible.

If you're unable to discern the suitability of a given song until you've already learned it and rehearsed it, than that would indicate a certain failure of musicianship. IMHO, this is a bass-ackwards way to develop a repertoire...

MM

[mellowinman]

Originally Posted by MysticMichael

Not the most sensible policy I've ever encountered...

In fact, it sounds like a potential massive waste of time...unless the purpose is simply to learn as many songs as possible, as indiscriminately as possible.

If you're unable to discern the suitability of a given song until you've already learned it and rehearsed it, than that would indicate a certain failure of musicianship. IMHO, this is a bass-ackwards way to develop a repertoire...

MM

Keeping in mind, of course, that WE'RE ALL PROFESSIONAL MUSICIANS WHO HAVE YEARS AND YEARS OF EXPERIENCE AND KNOW WHAT WE CAN AND CAN'T SING, AND WHAT WE HAVE SEEN AUDIENCES REACT TO.

I was really just venting that I don't believe I have ever ONCE suggested we learn a song that would be a waste of anybody's time, and I think a track record of four years of working together earns you some degree of respect.

[Downunderwonder]

The truth comes out.

The title of the thread was actually," Should I fire my drummer for not wanting to play what I want to play?"

The 'correct' answer wasn't forthcoming but you went and fired him anyway. Bully for you.

[Stumbo]

Originally Posted by smogg

In my band we discuss everything. The non singers opinions are just as valid as those who sing. We use a pretty simple approach.
1) Does it (the song) fit the bands image profile/target market.
2) Can someone actually sing the tune well.
3) Can all members at least tolerate the tune.
4) Does the end product sound good when we perform it as a unit.

5. Does it get the audience onto the dance floor?

[electracoyote]

Originally Posted by Stumbo

5. Does it get the audience onto the dance floor?

That's a big one in my book.

My bands play places where the management/ownership has set aside a big chunk of floor space and usually hardwood flooring for the specific purpose of having patrons dance. Most even light the floor to encourage dancing. IMHO, to ignore this aspect of your responsibility when playng these venues is a mistake.

I need to see crowd involvement to feel like my band and I are doing our jobs as entertainers. I need to see fists pumping, hear people singing along, see bodies on the floor, or some combination of those. I'm not an artist doing set pieces to be studied and slowly absorbed and quietly appreciated, I'm there to bring the party.

YMMV

[mellowinman]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

The truth comes out.

The title of the thread was actually," Should I fire my drummer for not wanting to play what I want to play?"

The 'correct' answer wasn't forthcoming but you went and fired him anyway. Bully for you.

Yeah, especially because the guy I just jammed with makes us sound like a much better band.

When one door closes, another one opens.

The bottom line is, the drummer I just fired was doing a lot of whining and complaining. He felt the spotlight was on our guitar player too much, and that he was "just in the background keeping the beat." But HE made the choice to be in the background, and to just keep the beat. The guy we jammed with tonight was INTERACTING with us, and using his ability and creativity during long jams, and working with the bass to make real music. He would never be in the background, because he isn't that kind of player. He knows that everyone in the band needs to entertain the audience.

So yeah, we go through a lot of drummers, but it seems like everyone we get is better than the guy before him.

So trading up is acceptable to me, and suddenly, I'm more willing to play or sing someone else's songs, because I don't have this dead weight around my neck telling me we should be something other than what we are:

A CLASSIC ROCK BAND.

[Downunderwonder]

7 pages to get that out in the open, must be a record for a "should I fire my drummer". I'm happy for you to be making the best music ever but I shudder at how difficult you must be to be around. The previous drummer was "the best drummer ever" and now he's a schmuck? How does that happen? What's the real story?

[mellowinman]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

7 pages to get that out in the open, must be a record for a "should I fire my drummer". I'm happy for you to be making the best music ever but I shudder at how difficult you must be to be around. The previous drummer was "the best drummer ever" and now he's a schmuck? How does that happen? What's the real story?

You know when you use quotes, there should be a quote. Did I say the previous drummer was "the best drummer ever?"

He was certainly better than the guy before him, who was better than the guy before him, who was better than the guy before him...

Very judgmental of you to assume I'm "difficult to be around," (an actual quote - see above,) when you don't know how negative this cat was.

He was a good drummer. He stayed on time, mostly, and he was a lot better than the quality of guys we were getting.

That said, he played a lot of straight 4/4; complained that we featured the lead guitar player too much; wouldn't do anything creative and yet complained he was just a "timekeeper," (doesn't that sound like more HIS problem than anyone else's? -just asking,) and he relied on the ride cymbal too much, and both that ride and his snare jumped out of the mix, while the rest of his kit was a little on the sad side. His kick had a "whoomph" sound, instead of a "bam" sound.

Some of these shortcomings were shortcomings I could live with, but playing with the guy we jammed with tonight brought them all out. Dude had a snare that was balanced with his kit, and didn't rely on his ride cymbal all the time.

This thread started out with me wondering how other players would react to a rule I was thinking of implementing. I got feedback, and I listened to it. That was the purpose of the thread.

I wasn't wondering if I should fire the drummer. However, when the drummer started making it clear he wanted to completely change the focus of the band, from classic to modern, and from longer jams to only three minute songs, I knew it would go downhill.

You don't know me. For some people, I AM really hard to be around.

For people who are really good, and very professional, I am a total joy.

Because I show up on time; I learn my parts before rehearsal; I listen to criticism and feedback; I provide most of the gear for just about everybody; I am willing to make phone calls and do legwork; I design the art, print the posters, print the set-lists, update the websites, invite the people, and basically work my ass off, and still post threads here asking if I should be allowed to have the band PLAY SONGS I THINK I CAN NAIL ON VOCALS, AND BELIEVE AFTER THIRTY SOME YEARS OF EXPERIENCE WILL GO OVER.

I'm not exactly asking for "the Lamb Lies Down on Broadway," played in a fugue tempo with everyone playing zithers.

[Downunderwonder]

Originally Posted by mellowinman

... we go through a lot of drummers, but it seems like everyone we get is better than the guy before him.

quid pro quo, he was the best drummer ever! If that's not what you meant you need to be more careful what you type.

So, what was the feedback that struck a chord? To me it was a bunch of guys telling you to lighten up on the regimen of "learn every tune every singer fancies having a crack at". Instead you feel inspired to do just that! Again, bully for you! Have fun with it and make some great covers.

[mellowinman]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

quid pro quo, he was the best drummer ever! If that's not what you meant you need to be more careful what you type.

So, what was the feedback that struck a chord? To me it was a bunch of guys telling you to lighten up on the regimen of "learn every tune every singer fancies having a crack at". Instead you feel inspired to do just that! Again, bully for you! Have fun with it and make some great covers.

"Learn every tune every singer fancies having a crack at" was a reaction to "beg everyone to learn songs you want to do, and be turned down every time, even though you are always learning guitar, bass, keyboard and harp parts to any song anyone fancies having a crack at without argument."

The bottom line is, I was being treated unfairly by this band. I own the PA. I sing lead on about 1/2 the songs. I do a lot of the "administrative" work. And yet I have to be told songs that I'm SURE will go over, and that we can do well, WON'T. I have to justify wanting to play songs that, in some cases, were big hits, and not some obscure B-side.

Almost every one of the people who said they didn't like my "rule," including you, didn't understand the part about "I WILL PLAY ANY SONG YOU WANT ME TO PLAY."

I can't make it any clearer: tell me to learn a song, and I will pull the song up on the internet, get out my instrument, and start learning it. If you want me to sing lead, I will take a very good crack at singing it, and if it just doesn't suit my voice, talent or ability, I will dump it.

And I hate to tell you this, but if you're in a professional band, you should be able to learn just about any song in a relatively short period of time. If you cannot, that is YOUR shortcoming, and it is up to you to make up for that shortcoming with practice. That is not ME wasting YOUR time. That is simply you doing what is necessary.

That makes me sound "hard to work with?"

I think it's the standard in professional music. Am I wrong?

I'll give you an example. Last night, the drummer we brought in played "Yer Blues" by the Beatles wrong. We stopped the song, put the original recording over the PA, and played it again. The second time, he nailed it.

There are players who can do that, and that's what you're competing with. I don't think I could do that, so I feel strongly I am the one who needs to step up my game. In the meantime, I will make sure and practice the heck out of anything I am "assigned," and so when I do play it, I will be its master.

Any time I spend doing that is time well spent, because it is making me a better player.

So yeah, people who "don't want to waste their time learning songs" come across to me as WHINERS who don't belong in any band that is being paid.

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by mellowinman

Am I wrong?

Yes.

[BawanaRik]

Hate a song? Maybe Achey Breaky Phart. But even then as Al Kooper used to say, change the chords around a little and buff up the lyrics and polish it and see what happens.

Originally Posted by shastaband

I played with the same guys for fourteen years straight back in the golden age of live music in the 1970s-1980s (6 nights-a-week, 5 set-a-night gigs in hotels and clubs). We did it like the UN Security Council-any one person could veto a song if he really didn't like it. No point trying to perform a song unless everyone could get behind it with enthusiasm. It meant we missed out on a few killer songs, but nobody had to play a song they absolutely hated.

[mellowinman]

Originally Posted by guy n. cognito

Yes.

So what you're saying is, I'm WRONG that it is a standard in the industry that if you are a pro cover player, you will be able to learn tunes fairly quickly?

Or are you trying to be clever?

[BawanaRik]

I used to play with a guy I'll call Gary. Gary would come in with tunes and be crazy in love with them, including a brilliant piece called Snakebit. I would get and learn the song and Gary would forget them. I don't deal with gary since this was part of a pattern of Garyisms.

I prefer adult behavior, not like the movies, although maybe, let's skip this part.

But I have learned tunes like Snakebit for others. I darn well expect some to learn Politician for me. A bit of decency and fairness goes along way. I stopped learning tunes in the last band I was in when the guiatard wouldn't "learn" House of the Raising Sun. He went berserk. I learned dozens of tunes for him and this included $#!- like Dino Jr. That didn't work out long term.

That all being said it's not such a bad thing to learn a song. I learned Another Girl Another Planet long ago and I don't know if it was luck but it comes in handy more often than I would have believed.

[BawanaRik]

If you are a "pro" cover you are expected to know the tune. If not learn it by listening on the way there.

If you're third tier you should be able to fake your way through the first pass and be solid second pass.

Originally Posted by mellowinman

So what you're saying is, I'm WRONG that it is a standard in the industry that if you are a pro cover player, you will be able to learn tunes fairly quickly?

Or are you trying to be clever?

[BawanaRik]

Without getting kinky drummer-bassist relationship do sometimes have a little more love hate than most.

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

7 pages to get that out in the open, must be a record for a "should I fire my drummer". I'm happy for you to be making the best music ever but I shudder at how difficult you must be to be around. The previous drummer was "the best drummer ever" and now he's a schmuck? How does that happen? What's the real story?

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by mellowinman

So what you're saying is, I'm WRONG that it is a standard in the industry that if you are a pro cover player, you will be able to learn tunes fairly quickly?

Or are you trying to be clever?

Being able to learn any song and doing it.......simply because someone wants you to......are two different things.