Band Meeting - Lowered the Boom

[mellowinman]

Originally Posted by guy n. cognito

Being able to learn any song and doing it.......simply because someone wants you to......are two different things.

Well, that's true.

You're being pretty, uh, incognito in making your point.

I'm saying that if I am in a band with you, I will learn anything you ask me to, and for me to want to be in a band with you, I would want you to do the same.

But it all comes back to the trust issue. I'm not going to waste your time with a bunch of songs that we have no business playing; and I'm not going to throw large amounts of songs at you.

We have exactly enough material for a four hour night. I think we would be better suited to have more material than that, and be able to rotate songs in and out at will.

Six hours worth? Five?

What is too much?

Getting back to the drummer that inspired me to post this thread, he gets TIRED easily, and so he didn't like the longer songs, and he didn't like the more complicated songs.

He wants to chug along in 4/4 for three minutes at a time, and he doesn't want to play Classic Rock.

But seriously, can you at least acknowledge that if I am learning anything asked of me, it gets a little discouraging to constantly be shot down for creative song choices?

I like to have my chance to put it in front of an audience, for a proper decision as to its appropriateness.

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by mellowinman

But seriously, can you at least acknowledge that if I am learning anything asked of me, it gets a little discouraging to constantly be shot down for creative song choices?

I like to have my chance to put it in front of an audience, for a proper decision as to its appropriateness.

I wouldn't learn each and every song suggested to me, and I wouldn't expect others playing with me to do it either. All of the current members of my band have significant experience with cover bands, and they have experience with a lot of different songs. If I suggest a song that they've tried before that didn't work, then I want them to tell me about it.

[mellowinman]

Originally Posted by guy n. cognito

I wouldn't learn each and every song suggested to me, and I wouldn't expect others playing with me to do it either. All of the current members of my band have significant experience with cover bands, and they have experience with a lot of different songs. If I suggest a song that they've tried before that didn't work, then I want them to tell me about it.

Yeah, but see, I don't disagree with that at all. We were talking about songs they had never tried, and just ASSUMED wouldn't go over.

[jive1]

Originally Posted by mellowinman

Yeah, but see, I don't disagree with that at all. We were talking about songs they had never tried, and just ASSUMED wouldn't go over.

Kind of like when I suggest you doing Hair of the Dog.

I guess I'm sorta like that drunk dude at the gig who keeps on requesting the same song.....

[mellowinman]

Originally Posted by jive1

Kind of like when I suggest you doing Hair of the Dog.

I guess I'm sorta like that drunk dude at the gig who keeps on requesting the same song.....

No, not at all. It's a great song, and I think it would go over, but I tell you, I absolutely CANNOT sing it for s---! I am at the edge of my range on the Aerosmith and Zeppelin songs we do, and if you really notice, I am doing the ones without a lot of high, sustained screamy notes.

We did try "Hair of the Dog" with my wife on lead vocals, and it was not bad at all, but she didn't like singing it. She "couldn't relate to the lyrics."

Believe me, if I could pull of one of my all time heroes, Dan McCafferty, we would do more than just "Hair of the Dog!" I would also do some lesser known ones, like "Kentucky Fried Blues," and my all time favorite: "Beggar's Day."

The only way I could sing HOTD is if we transposed it way down, and then it would sound like a warm serving of ass.

But no WAY am I assuming it wouldn't go over. People LOVE that song!

I learned a lesson about that drunk dude, by the way. I tried my technique of "next set," and then at the end of the night, "didn't you hear it?" on a guy with a Doors song, and he got pretty hostile. Drunk as hell, but pretty good memory. Didn't see that coming.

We have GOT to learn some Doors, just for guys like that.

If you ever show up at one of our gigs, I'll scream "Hair of the Dog" no matter HOW bad it sounds.

Especially if you're drunk, and especially if you bring that moob guy.

[AltGrendel]

Originally Posted by mellowinman

...Getting back to the drummer that inspired me to post this thread, he gets TIRED easily, and so he didn't like the longer songs, and he didn't like the more complicated songs.

He wants to chug along in 4/4 for three minutes at a time, and he doesn't want to play Classic Rock...

See, I don't remember you posting this tidbit before. Lazy Drummer is lazy. No two ways about it. This is most likely the passive/agressive thing I first mentioned.
"DAAAAADDD, I don't WHANA do my homework."

And as far as playing a Doors song, Roadhouse Blues would probably fit the bill.

Good luck.

[mellowinman]

Here's the deal with Fill-in Drummer. In my story of all our drummers, he could be called "Drummer Zero," because he is the guy my wife was going to form the band with, about four years ago. They played in bands together years ago, and he didn't want to be in a band with me. I was the dealbreaker.

I thought it was because he had a thing for my wife, and didn't want to be in a band with her, with the husband around, but it was more that I was an unknown quantity, who hadn't really done cover bands, and basically, he liked "sure things" if he was going to play with anyone.

It started out he, my wife, and a guy who played guitar in one of their bands were going to do a three piece, and I was going to run sound, and keep a mic back at the board, so I could throw in backing vocals, and maybe do some "guest appearances" doing lead vocals now and then on a song or two. It was going to be Hair Metal mostly, because that's what they had all played.

First Drummer Zero bailed, and then the guitar player, who stuck around long enough for us to audition drummers, and it just so happened the first drummer we auditioned was there when Arthur showed up at our door.

So Drummer Zero, (let's call him "Ian," which is his chosen fake name for now,) came over Saturday to rehearse with us, so he could fill in for our next show, and he says he might fill in for some other shows too, but he's in two other bands, and they are his priority.

Well, we rehearse with the full PA, effects and everything, including the sound effects for the Pink Floyd songs, and he's all full of compliments for me. He loves my keyboard sax on "Turn the Page," which we played for the first time, because the Classic Rock crowd at the Navy Club will love it. He's impressed with Krystal's bass playing, (she never played bass in the bands they were in,) as well as mine. He's loving the vocals, the song list, and yeah, Arthur on guitar is something you have to experience.

So by the end of the night, he's saying he'll send us his schedule, and we can go ahead and book shows.

So right now it looks like he's in, but I have long since stopped caring too much about this stuff. Bottom line is, when it's good, it's good, and when it's not, you just move on, and hope it will be good again. He really is the best drummer to play with us so far, and if he doesn't work out, he just reminded me once more that every time we move on, we move UP.

To recap:

Drummer 1: really a crappy drummer
Drummer 2: skilled, but too loud, hard to get along with, and didn't like to practice
Drummer 3: less skill than 2, more skill than 1, had woman issues, (wrote a book on how to have a happy marriage, then cheated with a younger woman; never could look my wife in the eye)
Drummer 4: more skill than the first 3, but health issues, and used his Ride Cymbal too much
Drummer 5: more skill the the first 4, but certifiably insane, ("was that your drummer punching himself in the face in the parking lot?") and played WAAAAY too loud
Drummer 6: (really just drummer 4 again, "hey, I never quit," came to see our show with Drummer 5 and told us what was wrong with Drummer 5...)
Technically there WAS an actual Drummer 6, but he was a fill-in, and thought he could sing AC/DC, but made you want to shove broken glass in your ears; had a GREAT sounding Gretsch kit, but actually had some tempo issues that he wasn't aware of (!) even though some people in this town call him "the best drummer around," and he did have good style

So Fill-in Number Two, or Drummer Zero, or Ian pretty much blows all these clowns away, and he has a snare that is actually somewhat in balance with the rest of his kit. How many drummers have you jammed with who can say that? NOT 1-5 on that list above, I'll tell you! Kick, tom, tom, CRAAACK! "Is my snare cutting through the mix?" (me: I WILL KILL YOU!)

So we'll book gigs, and try it out, and if he really is after my wife, all I can say is, we had a good run...

[jungleheat]

Originally Posted by electracoyote

I love the spirit and logic of your post, except for the above.

There is a short list of songs that every cover bar dance floor band in my area plays. To axe them from the list just because other bands play them would be cutting off our noses to spite our faces.

So we will play "Sweet Home Alabama" and the rest, even though every other band does it too.

Bar owners and patrons expect it, and we like to work regularly.

I have a 2 part answer to this. The first is that I listed several criteria, and any particular song will meet those different criteria in varying levels, and then you actually play the songs with the highest average scores.

Second is no, that's not true at all. There are no songs you "have" to play unless you are being held at gunpoint, or at least unless someone specifically requests them. There are so many "mandatory" songs, that no one band could even really play ALL of them, so you have to draw the line somewhere. The reason those songs are mandatory is because every band plays them, so they become a cliched part of the "cover band bar experience". But guess what, if every band stopped playing Brown Eyed Girl tomorrow, people might be kind of surprised at first, maybe even a bit relieved. If they are REALLY tuned in musically, gradually they might realize something is strange. But by the time they would get to the point of caring enough to do something about it, they would have completely forgotten, and some other song would have taken it's place in the pantheon. I mean, what did bands play in the 80s before Appetite for Destruction came out in the slots where they play those songs now? There must have been something right? Probably songs that were "mandatory" (maybe I Ran, Hungry Like the Wolf, etc...?) at the time. Things change.

So yeah, you can be that generic cover band playing all the same generic cover band songs, and just be another crab in the pot trying to climb over the other crabs trying to climb over the other crabs, OR you can curate an excellent and eclectic set list, made up of a range of songs that fit the style of the band, with maybe a handful of nods to convention but otherwise going your own way, and be THAT band. The "hey, did you hear about THESE dudes? They played _____ and it was unbelievable!" band that gets lots of business because they have a product that is distinguishable (and better) than the others around them.

Originally Posted by bluewine

Or saying a song is crap.

The song isn't crap, it's just a song you personally don't like.

Blue

No, some songs are definitely crap. I distrust anyone who tries to convince me otherwise, because they are either lying to me or to themselves.

Originally Posted by bluewine

And yes, imo if something sells it's good.

Wow. I couldn't possibly disagree with this more. High Fructose Corn Syrup just might be the biggest selling ingredient in food these days, does that mean it's the best? No, it means it's cheap and it sells.

Originally Posted by bluewine

bought happiness and joy to the souls of millions.

So has heroin.

I like some rap/hiphop (mostly older stuff), but most of it, just like most music in general is crap. And in actual fact, it is some of the least "musical" music out there, because part of the style is to be amusical. You typically have a repetitive 8 or 16 bar "beat", mostly consisting of drums with very little in the way of melody or harmony, cycling continuously for 3-4 minutes, with a guy more or less talking over it. Add to that it's more or less made by machines anyway these days, just like the $90 sneakers you just bought made of plastic worth about 37 cents.

Originally Posted by MysticMichael

In fact, it sounds like a potential GUARANTEED massive waste of time...unless the purpose is simply to learn as many songs as possible, as indiscriminately as possible.

If you're unable to discern the suitability of a given song until you've already learned it and rehearsed it, than that would indicate a certain failure of musicianship. IMHO, this is a bass-ackwards way to develop a repertoire...

MM

Fixed for accuracy.

Originally Posted by mellowinman

So yeah, people who "don't want to waste their time learning songs" come across to me as WHINERS who don't belong in any band that is being paid.

In the interim the truth has come out about why you actually started this thread. But I will say, this statement is absolutely ridiculous. What makes a musician a pro is that they waste as little time as possible. That means cutting out dead wood from a setlist BEFORE learning it, not AFTER. YES, you should be able to trust the other musicians in your band to suggest GREAT songs. But in reality, sometimes they won't be great. The other side of that is that you have to trust them to discuss/oppose the songs brought to the table if they just aren't right for the group OR even if someone just really dislikes it (hopefully they aren't just being unreasonable, but even if they are, it's easier to just let them have the veto and try something else).

I can usually start playing along with a song the first time I'm hearing it (on bass at least, guitar and keys are more complicated). I simply don't want to bother if a song is one I'm not interested in doing, or if I think it won't go over well with the audience or both. There are too many great songs to play to worry about any specific one if someone doesn't like it. And a song endorsed by all members of a band is by definition a better song than one that is vetoed by one or more members.

So for your situation (which seems to be resolved with your new drummer, but in general...), stop playing crappy songs that other people choose if it's making you resentful. And if your songs aren't accepted for whatever reason, try to figure out what the reason for that is, and come up with some alternates that might scratch the same itch for you, yet be more palatable to your bandmates and/or audience. Personally, I think most of your choices are pretty decent (the ones I'm familiar with), but maybe the band doesn't feel it's the right sound for them. So maybe Whipping Post gets axed but Elizabeth Reed gets the go ahead. Or some other song that fills that niche for you. Try to zero in on the specific objections to any given song, then try to find a song that doesn't have those characteristics, but is otherwise very similar to the original choice.

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by jungleheat

I have a 2 part answer to this. The first is that I listed several criteria, and any particular song will meet those different criteria in varying levels, and then you actually play the songs with the highest average scores.

Second is no, that's not true at all. There are no songs you "have" to play unless you are being held at gunpoint, or at least unless someone specifically requests them. There are so many "mandatory" songs, that no one band could even really play ALL of them, so you have to draw the line somewhere. The reason those songs are mandatory is because every band plays them, so they become a cliched part of the "cover band bar experience". But guess what, if every band stopped playing Brown Eyed Girl tomorrow, people might be kind of surprised at first, maybe even a bit relieved. If they are REALLY tuned in musically, gradually they might realize something is strange. But by the time they would get to the point of caring enough to do something about it, they would have completely forgotten, and some other song would have taken it's place in the pantheon. I mean, what did bands play in the 80s before Appetite for Destruction came out in the slots where they play those songs now? There must have been something right? Probably songs that were "mandatory" (maybe I Ran, Hungry Like the Wolf, etc...?) at the time. Things change.

So yeah, you can be that generic cover band playing all the same generic cover band songs, and just be another crab in the pot trying to climb over the other crabs trying to climb over the other crabs, OR you can curate an excellent and eclectic set list, made up of a range of songs that fit the style of the band, with maybe a handful of nods to convention but otherwise going your own way, and be THAT band. The "hey, did you hear about THESE dudes? They played _____ and it was unbelievable!" band that gets lots of business because they have a product that is distinguishable (and better) than the others around them.



No, some songs are definitely crap. I distrust anyone who tries to convince me otherwise, because they are either lying to me or to themselves.



Wow. I couldn't possibly disagree with this more. High Fructose Corn Syrup just might be the biggest selling ingredient in food these days, does that mean it's the best? No, it means it's cheap and it sells.




So has heroin.

I like some rap/hiphop (mostly older stuff), but most of it, just like most music in general is crap. And in actual fact, it is some of the least "musical" music out there, because part of the style is to be amusical. You typically have a repetitive 8 or 16 bar "beat", mostly consisting of drums with very little in the way of melody or harmony, cycling continuously for 3-4 minutes, with a guy more or less talking over it. Add to that it's more or less made by machines anyway these days, just like the $90 sneakers you just bought made of plastic worth about 37 cents.



Fixed for accuracy.



In the interim the truth has come out about why you actually started this thread. But I will say, this statement is absolutely ridiculous. What makes a musician a pro is that they waste as little time as possible. That means cutting out dead wood from a setlist BEFORE learning it, not AFTER. YES, you should be able to trust the other musicians in your band to suggest GREAT songs. But in reality, sometimes they won't be great. The other side of that is that you have to trust them to discuss/oppose the songs brought to the table if they just aren't right for the group OR even if someone just really dislikes it (hopefully they aren't just being unreasonable, but even if they are, it's easier to just let them have the veto and try something else).

I can usually start playing along with a song the first time I'm hearing it (on bass at least, guitar and keys are more complicated). I simply don't want to bother if a song is one I'm not interested in doing, or if I think it won't go over well with the audience or both. There are too many great songs to play to worry about any specific one if someone doesn't like it. And a song endorsed by all members of a band is by definition a better song than one that is vetoed by one or more members.

So for your situation (which seems to be resolved with your new drummer, but in general...), stop playing crappy songs that other people choose if it's making you resentful. And if your songs aren't accepted for whatever reason, try to figure out what the reason for that is, and come up with some alternates that might scratch the same itch for you, yet be more palatable to your bandmates and/or audience. Personally, I think most of your choices are pretty decent (the ones I'm familiar with), but maybe the band doesn't feel it's the right sound for them. So maybe Whipping Post gets axed but Elizabeth Reed gets the go ahead. Or some other song that fills that niche for you. Try to zero in on the specific objections to any given song, then try to find a song that doesn't have those characteristics, but is otherwise very similar to the original choice.

I pretty much agree with every word of that post. You can play in a cover band without playing the same crap every other bands play. I like playing songs that people know, but they never hear played live. I think those songs go over much better than "Sweet Home Alabama" as they take people by surprise. I also like the weird one-hit wonders - great songs, and people often comment, "man, I haven't heard that song in years".

Just because you play covers, that's no excuse for being boring. Far too many cover bands just play the same old songs - don't they have any imagination?

[Brad Johnson]

Agreed.

[mellowinman]

So our first gig with Ian Powell, (his new fake stage name,) will be at the Navy Club, which is similar to a VFW, and we're going almost all classic:

Set 1
R-O-C-K in the USA - Mellencamp
Always on the Run – Lenny Kravitz
Train Kept a' Rollin' - Aerosmith
Rockin' in the Free World - Neil Young
Yer Blues - Beatles
Give me One Reason - Tracy Chapman
I Hate Myself for Lovin' You - Joan Jett
Peach - Prince
Don't Let me Down - Beatles
Stealin' - Uriah Heep

Set 2
Piece of my Heart - Janis
Beast of Burden - Bette Midler version (Stones)
Turn the Page - Bob Seger
Ten Inch Record - Aerosmith
Sweet Emotion - Aerosmith
Train, Train - Blackfoot
Knockin on Heaven’s Door – GNR version (Dylan)
Rocky Mountain Way - Joe Walsh

Set 3
Tie Your Mother Down - Queen
Authority Song - Mellencamp
Revolution - Beatles
While my Guitar Gently Weeps - Beatles
I Hate my Life – Theory of a Deadman
Midnight Special - CCR
Kiss - Prince
Voodoo Child (slight return) - Jimi Hendrix

Set 4
Money - Pink Floyd
Comfortably Numb - Pink Floyd
Wanted Dead or Alive - Bon Jovi
Use Me - Bill Withers
I'm the Only One - Melissa Etheridge
Long Tall Sally - Little Richard
Whole Lotta Love - Led Zeppelin
Freebird - Lynyrd Skynyrd

This is a good set list for me, and I didn't bully anyone into playing this stuff, in fact, if it were up to me, no way would we play Theory of a Deadman or John Mellencamp. (just personal preferences.) I enthusiastically learned both Mellencamp songs on bass, (took me six days, a barrel of beef stew and seventeen pounds of Hawaiian Koa coffee, but I did it,) and the CCR tune is a weird hybrid of a capella and their actual version.

Ian Powell is totally psyched to play all this stuff; the exact same stuff that would have had our most recent drummer crying like those kids whose cupcakes I stole. (they looked a little overweight, and I was hungry)

And suddenly, I'm all having fun again!

So you never do know what turn the road will take.

I will report back on whether any of that stuff went over.

(sigh) still no "Whipping Post," though...

[modulusman]

Originally Posted by mellowinman

So our first gig with Ian Powell, (his new fake stage name,) will be at the Navy Club, which is similar to a VFW, and we're going almost all classic:

Set 1
R-O-C-K in the USA - Mellencamp
Always on the Run – Lenny Kravitz
Train Kept a' Rollin' - Aerosmith
Rockin' in the Free World - Neil Young
Yer Blues - Beatles
Give me One Reason - Tracy Chapman
I Hate Myself for Lovin' You - Joan Jett
Peach - Prince
Don't Let me Down - Beatles
Stealin' - Uriah Heep

Set 2
Piece of my Heart - Janis
Beast of Burden - Bette Midler version (Stones)
Turn the Page - Bob Seger
Ten Inch Record - Aerosmith
Sweet Emotion - Aerosmith
Train, Train - Blackfoot
Knockin on Heaven’s Door – GNR version (Dylan)
Rocky Mountain Way - Joe Walsh

Set 3
Tie Your Mother Down - Queen
Authority Song - Mellencamp
Revolution - Beatles
While my Guitar Gently Weeps - Beatles
I Hate my Life – Theory of a Deadman
Midnight Special - CCR
Kiss - Prince
Voodoo Child (slight return) - Jimi Hendrix

Set 4
Money - Pink Floyd
Comfortably Numb - Pink Floyd
Wanted Dead or Alive - Bon Jovi
Use Me - Bill Withers
I'm the Only One - Melissa Etheridge
Long Tall Sally - Little Richard
Whole Lotta Love - Led Zeppelin
Freebird - Lynyrd Skynyrd

This is a good set list for me, and I didn't bully anyone into playing this stuff, in fact, if it were up to me, no way would we play Theory of a Deadman or John Mellencamp. (just personal preferences.) I enthusiastically learned both Mellencamp songs on bass, (took me six days, a barrel of beef stew and seventeen pounds of Hawaiian Koa coffee, but I did it,) and the CCR tune is a weird hybrid of a capella and their actual version.

Ian Powell is totally psyched to play all this stuff; the exact same stuff that would have had our most recent drummer crying like those kids whose cupcakes I stole. (they looked a little overweight, and I was hungry)

And suddenly, I'm all having fun again!

So you never do know what turn the road will take.

I will report back on whether any of that stuff went over.

(sigh) still no "Whipping Post," though...

How long are your sets? In any band i have ever played with 8 songs would be about 30 minutes.

[mellowinman]

Originally Posted by modulusman

How long are your sets? In any band i have ever played with 8 songs would be about 30 minutes.

Sets are 45 minutes.

Songs in Set one average about 4.5 minutes, and there are 10. It might be more than 45 minutes. I usually make sure Set One is a nice long set.

Set Two might be a little shy, but, as I said, Set One might be a little over.

Set Three will probably run over! Voodoo Child (slight return) runs anywhere from 8-12 minutes, and is usually our high point. People LOVE that jam!

And Set Four ends with the full 12 minutes of Freebird. I wouldn't be surprised if we cut Whole Lotta Love, due to time constraints!

Plus, if we ever did run short, we have a couple we can pull out.