Band opinion clashes - Songwriting and what matters

[Shaun_Bass0]

Just wanted some of your guys thoughts on this kinda thing and how you deal with these situations.

So i'm at rehearsal last night and we start work on a new, keys lead heavy-ballad kinda song (think "The Unforgiven" by Metallica), the kinda song that's really carried by the vocal melody and lead guitar work. So we ask our drummer to keep it steady but simple, to quote singer "do a lars ulrich thing", to which we get "thats boring, drums aren't doing much, i'm not a puppet, you lot just dont understand drums" etc.

Then he tries to get us to change the song just to fit in this one over the top, completely innappropriate fill "cuz i've been working on this techique for ages". When I say change I mean go from ballad to thrash and back in the space of 4 bars, which sounded terrible.
Now, i'm of the opinion that when it comes down to the song, technique counts for nothing (in the sense of look at me , look how complicated my part is) and taking a strong melody and making it stand out by giving it a steady base to go off from is the most important thing for a rythm section to do. A deceptively hard technique in itself I think

Don't get me wrong, I consider myself lucky to have found a drummer who has both chops and decent timing, but for the love of god I cannot get through to the guy the importance of the song over individual flare and the whole look at me factor.

How have you guys dealth with this in the past?.

Thanks in advance...

[Pork Pie Hat]

Firstly,

Why does this fill of his have to be featured in this particular song? Praise him for the fill, positive reinforcement, then maybe jam around it and come up with a song to fit it.

'That's some amazing drummy work, but do you know what would make the fill sound even better....'

Try to get him to play the song both ways, maybe get some friends to listen to both versions (priming them to prefer the straight version, which shouldn't be too hard )

Tell him he'll get his way another time (but he won't, he's a drummer).

Casually remark that you've heard that John Q Greatdrummer is around town and looking for a band.


Unfortunately, logic and rational argument about songwriting and overall effect will rarely work with a drummer.

I've never forgotten the words of one drummer who made every song sound overburdened with stick work - 'I've paid for five drums, so I'm going to use them.'

[Shaun_Bass0]

It doesn't have to be there, thats my point. It doesn't add anything to the song, just crowds the section, throws the singer off and totally doesnt click with what i'm playing, which the rest of the band actually really like as at this point in the song its only lead guitar/keys and i'm holding the roots down, which suits the situation perfectly.

Just never ceases to amaze me how you can have four guys telling you to tone it down for the greater good of the song and its always us who's wrong.

I hear you about the "i've bought this many drums" although in my case its 5 toms, 2 snares, 8cymbals and double bass to contend with!

cheers for the advice, i'll give it a go...

[Turkeybasster]

Pork Pie Hat hit the solution best. In fact I don't know how to put that any better.

If worse comes to worse, flow with his direction and change the song to fit for a while, then introduce something else or back to the original premise. That makes for a song where everyone feels like they have written a part of and makes for some very interesting creations.

[kraigo]

Ah youth. I may have been that drummer once. Part of the reason I took up other instruments was to learn better where the boundaries were.

The fact is, that it's always going to be subjective. Is it overplaying or is it spicing up the music. Is it tasteful or is it boring? All a person can do is look at their motivations. Your description of the response you got tells me that his motivations are wrong.

Everyone has to take one for the team every now and then. Well, except the lead guitarist. Too lazy to insert the smiley.

KO

[mutedeity]

Pork Pie Hat is onto something with the positive reinforcement approach. I would probably say something like, "Well, you know all that stuff is cool but I think it would be more effective if you tried a "less is more approach". Tell your drummer that his initial idea is a great starting point but to make it more effective in the context of the song and show his versatility he might consider playing the notes from that approach that are most effective.

Just a tip too, I wouldn't personally ever tell a drummer to take the Lars Ulrich approach. As someone that has an excellent understanding of drums and drummers take it from me, telling someone to take the Lars Ulrich approach is like telling a bass player to take the Kip Winger approach.

[nun lover]

he sounds like one of those drummers who are just into drumming, and probably has clothes with drum logos. a drum enthusiast, who couldn't watch a band and get into the songs because he's only listening to the impressive cymbal chokes.

wouldn't he say something if you inappropriately shredded through the song on your bass with your stance 5' apart and your tongue hanging out?

seriously though i'd just put my foot down and reject the idea, maybe try to write a new song with his fill.

[mutedeity]

Originally Posted by nun lover

he sounds like one of those drummers who are just into drumming, and probably has clothes with drum logos. a drum enthusiast, who couldn't watch a band and get into the songs because he's only listening to the impressive cymbal chokes.

wouldn't he say something if you inappropriately shredded through the song on your bass with your stance 5' apart and your tongue hanging out?

seriously though i'd just put my foot down and reject the idea, maybe try to write a new song with his fill.

From time to time people give great advice and well thought out. This is not it though. You are making some interesting assumptions.

[Smallmouth_Bass]

Yeah, I agree; try and use his drum fill as an idea to start off a new song more appropriate to what he's playing. As for playing it in the ballad you are working on, you just have to let him know that it's not working. If the song calls for a simple beat, then it needs a simple beat. Or, you could challenge him to come up with something that is more challenging but subtle. For example, playing some ghost notes on the snare that will help the groove move along, but are low in volume so it doesn't stand out.

One important thing to remember is to be a musician first and be a drummer (or insert instrument name here) second.

[Stumbo]

The song comes first according to who wrote it. I mean, the band can vote and if the band can't agree, whoever wrote the song gets final say.

You can also agree ahead of time who gets to a "veto" over songs by the band. What if the drummer starts telling the bass player what to play or starts commenting on the lyrics (if the drummer is not the singer)? The band has to agree on a songwriting format so you can move forward. If some parts don't seem to fit, don't throw them away. Save them for other songs or jam with them and see what happens.

[nun lover]

Originally Posted by mutedeity

From time to time people give great advice and well thought out. This is not it though. You are making some interesting assumptions.

From time to time people have a sense of humor. This is not it though.

[Deacon_Blues]

I'm with Stumbo. You need to play what the song asks for. Flashy fills can be cool and audiences like to hear them too, but only as long as they're played impeccably timing-wise and not too often. However, first and foremost they need to fit the music.

[mutedeity]

Originally Posted by nun lover

From time to time people have a sense of humor. This is not it though.

With all due respect if you were trying to be funny, you failed miserably. It looked like you were trying to give serious advice as far as I can see when you said "seriously I'd just put put my foot down".

[Joe Nerve]

this one seems pretty simple. it's got to be a majority rules thing in a band. if everyone is against it and the drummer still insists - then start looking for someone else because you're only going to wind up wasting a lot of time with this guy. I know from experience. I'll add that I wouldn't harp too much on who's right and who's wrong and all the theory rhetoric about playing for the song. neither of you are right. it's art and anything goes. it's just a matter of taste, style, opinion, etc. If you get into a battle of "it should" or "needs" to be this way - "you're wrong and I'm right" - you're only going to fuel the fire. I say it's time for new band rules - majority vote, no argument, and keep things moving along.

[mutedeity]

Originally Posted by Joe Nerve

this one seems pretty simple. it's got to be a majority rules thing in a band. if everyone is against it and the drummer still insists - then start looking for someone else because you're only going to wind up wasting a lot of time with this guy. I know from experience. I'll add that I wouldn't harp too much on who's right and who's wrong and all the theory rhetoric about playing for the song. neither of you are right. it's art and anything goes. it's just a matter of taste, style, opinion, etc. If you get into a battle of "it should" or "needs" to be this way - "you're wrong and I'm right" - you're only going to fuel the fire. I say it's time for new band rules - majority vote, no argument, and keep things moving along.

I always find this band vote thing weird to be honest. It might be that I either play in bands where I give the client what they want or I am the band leader and I make the final decisions.

I would say that the band vote thing is a nice token of being "democratic". What I would say the inherent problem there is though is that someone will end up having their idea vetoed. This is a nice way to make someone feel alienated and constrained by the rest of the band over time too. In the end it's not really any better than the "you're wrong, I'm right" approach.

Really positive reinforcement and discussion is the key to being effective. You are much better off trying to get someone to come around by making them see how trying a different approach benefits them and the music as a whole. That way you aren't going to force anyone into a corner and they will be more likely to feel as though they learned something by being able to adapt and be proud of the result.

I think if you do have an impasse where the drummer is playing something that just isn't working for everyone else, and it does come down to a "group vote", the best way to approach it is by saying "look, this part really isn't working, can we try some other options and go from there?" Put the onus back on the drummer to come up with a new part that they will be happy with too.

Also you might want to have the drummer give you their reasoning behind the approach they are using in terms of the piece of music, rather than their technical approach. If it comes down to the fact that your drummer is just being stubborn and wanting to do his technical thing regardless of the impact it has on the piece of music you really do have a greater issue to deal with.

[fenderhutz]

Break into a complicated slap bass line during the verse.

Refuse to change it.

[Geddyfleaharris]

The band voting thing is a tough one. As Mutedeity pointed out someone always perceives themselves to have "lost". When it comes to writing songs I usually hope that the guys in my band will eventually hear what the song really needs. 9 times out of 10 they do. When it comes to gigs, recording, money etc we try to make decisions that everyone agrees to or we don't do it. Sometimes there is compromise but we don't try to settle things by voting. If someone in the band ends up on the wrong side of the vote too many times they will end up with a lot of resentment building up. And we all know where that leads.....

I guess the flip side of that is if bands do vote and 1 person consistently votes opposite of the rest of the band then maybe that is sending a signal in itself.

[dewd]

What do you call a guy who hangs out with musicians?
...
...
A drummer!

[markkoelsch]

Well, drummers and guitards have issues with subtle and laid back sometimes. You could really go to the extreme and write the song as a true ballad...no drums. That would really frustrate the guy

Seriously, I had a similar situation with a ballad a guitarist/singer and I wrote. The guitar was basic, the bass was fretless in what sounded more cello like than anything else, and the drummer was trying to play rock over it. I tried like the dickens to get him to lay back, but he did not get it. So, we went back and demoed the song. The first 2/3 of the song just had a few chime like cymbal hits, and then we redid the ending to rock a bit more. It was sort of structurally like the way Queen did the live version of Who Wants To Live Forever. Once he heard what I meant, he was actually totally into what we did because it had dynamics, drama, and a sense of space.

It could be that your drummer just does not understand what you mean, and what the final results are. It could be that he is a true metal head, and will never be happy playing ballads. It is like when Steve Perry and John Cain brought Open Arms to Journey. Neal Schon hated it, but did record it. He did not understand the power of the song until they played it to an arena and saw and heard the response.

Chops are great, but the true test of a musician is to know when to apply them. Blind chops are ok for personal practice, but chops for chops sake in a band situation is akin to musical masturbation. If you want to play fast and complicated do so, but do it so it supports the song as the song is THE thing.

[Fetusyolk]

Is this drummer also by chance half the guitarists i've played with?