Band Sound Mix

[3ccl6]

The sound engineer/sound guy insists that our band only use the house system. No in-ear-monitors, no bass monitor...patch through the DI Box to house system and go. Not to mention that the house subwoofers are hung 25 feet above close tot he ceiling.

He claims that the house/audience hear the bass loud and clear. Meanwhile, I am having a hard time hearing anything at all. The vocals, guitar, drum and piano/keyboard drown everything out.

I know the system is brand new and we have a lot of tinkering to do. I suppose IEM would be a first step...but I have a feeling that most of you will say you'll still need a bass amp/monitor right beside you on stage?

Anyone have this problem before? Suggestion in fixing it? (And don't tell me to get a new sound guy.)

[megadethjohn]

Tell the sound guy that he can either patch you through a monitor or bring a small combo amp and use it as a monitor. There is logic to going straight through the PA but you still need to here yourself.

[3ccl6]

The last time we played I used my old Fender BXR100. Wonder if that's too big and loud for the sound guy...he said we should turn it off next time?

Thanks for your suggestion. Maybe I'll ask him to patch me through to one of the floor JBL EON monitors.

Anyone else?

[nsmar4211]

+1 to the bringing a small amp and playing through that. Trying to figure out how to use my crate BT15 practice amp myself as a monitor . I've actually used it as my amp at a couple small gigs (sitting in at parties, not bringing huge amp just for that!) so it's plenty loud enough.... so you wouldn't need a huge thing to hear yourself and if it's small it won't freakout the sound guy.

Half the gigs I've played I've not been able to hear myself so I feel your pain. Can you move yourself out of firing range of every elses monitors? Ramble off stage to out front or anything? Make the soundguy stand on stage and see what you're talking about?

[gjsven]

Who is paying the sound guy? What he's proposing is frankly rubbish.

If getting a new soundguy is out of the question you really need to be firm with this one and tell him you must have some foldback. Soundguys who get shirty over musos turning their amps up to reasonably audible level just demonstrate that they don't understand the concept of sound reinforcement. Their job is to reinforce an existing sound, not just move faders up and down like the volume on a bedroom CD player. Sound needs to be reinforced for the band as well as the audience.

A similar example of this ignorance - A very experienced bassist friend of mine told me he was once abused by a soundguy during soundcheck because his rig was too loud. He turned it right down to bedroom level, but was once again abused. So he muted his cabinet, so all that was coming through was the DI signal from his Mesa Big Block. Again he was abused - "I've f***ing told you three times now, turn your f***ing amp down, you're too f***ing loud and I can't mix you from the desk!" My friend switched his amp off, put his bass down and walked away (which strangely enough fixed the problem of too much bass out the front).

IMNSHO, 90% of soundguys don't understand foldback because they've never been musicians, and a similar percentage refuse to give the band any input into what happens at the desk. The band is ultimately left to suffer when they play badly due to poor foldback. If this is the situation you're in (you understand the relationship better than me of course!), you need to find a way to reverse that 'balance of power' so that the soundguy has some 'incentive' to deliver the best outcome for you.

Good luck!

[ElectrAcoustic]

Good suggestions all around.. You could also get a couple of these and put him out of a job..



He's obviously a tool if he has subs hanging anywhere.. subs lose at least 50% of their effectiveness when off the ground..

[Moe Monsarrat]

Yeah, no hanging subs! I had a band that didn't use any amps on stage. We played reggae & dub. It worked great & this is how we did it: the guitar amps were off stage either in a back room or in the big drum case miked up. The bass was direct thru a preamp. The keys were also direct & of course the drums were miked. Here's the crucial part: the soundman was in the middle of the stage with his board & effects. Everything came through big sideshots & floor monitors & the house got the same feed as the band onstage. It sounded like studio sound. It was time consuming to set up, but what a great sound! We were playing a lot of dub with effects so it was cool for the audience to see the sound guy jumping around twisting knobs. Plus, we dressed him funny! I gotta say it was about the best way to make sure you dug the house mix & if you need something turned up a bit, just walk over & tell him.

[maxgrant]

Originally Posted by 3ccl6

The sound engineer/sound guy insists that our band only use the house system. No in-ear-monitors, no bass monitor...patch through the DI Box to house system and go. Not to mention that the house subwoofers are hung 25 feet above close tot he ceiling.

He claims that the house/audience hear the bass loud and clear. Meanwhile, I am having a hard time hearing anything at all. The vocals, guitar, drum and piano/keyboard drown everything out.

I know the system is brand new and we have a lot of tinkering to do. I suppose IEM would be a first step...but I have a feeling that most of you will say you'll still need a bass amp/monitor right beside you on stage?

Anyone have this problem before? Suggestion in fixing it? (And don't tell me to get a new sound guy.)

Insist that if you can't hear the bass there's no point in your playing. And that YOU CAN'T F***ING HEAR YOUR BASS.

[Johnny Mack]

Originally Posted by gjsven

Who is paying the sound guy? What he's proposing is frankly rubbish.

If getting a new soundguy is out of the question you really need to be firm with this one and tell him you must have some foldback. Soundguys who get shirty over musos turning their amps up to reasonably audible level just demonstrate that they don't understand the concept of sound reinforcement. Their job is to reinforce an existing sound, not just move faders up and down like the volume on a bedroom CD player. Sound needs to be reinforced for the band as well as the audience.

A similar example of this ignorance - A very experienced bassist friend of mine told me he was once abused by a soundguy during soundcheck because his rig was too loud. He turned it right down to bedroom level, but was once again abused. So he muted his cabinet, so all that was coming through was the DI signal from his Mesa Big Block. Again he was abused - "I've f***ing told you three times now, turn your f***ing amp down, you're too f***ing loud and I can't mix you from the desk!" My friend switched his amp off, put his bass down and walked away (which strangely enough fixed the problem of too much bass out the front).

IMNSHO, 90% of soundguys don't understand foldback because they've never been musicians, and a similar percentage refuse to give the band any input into what happens at the desk. The band is ultimately left to suffer when they play badly due to poor foldback. If this is the situation you're in (you understand the relationship better than me of course!), you need to find a way to reverse that 'balance of power' so that the soundguy has some 'incentive' to deliver the best outcome for you.

Good luck!

post of the week!

we are constantly mixed as if we were a cookie cutter 3 Doors Down type band, live AND studio. this is completely unacceptable, who is HE to know what we should sound like? SOUND REINFORCEMENT BABY!

[chucko58]

Originally Posted by maxgrant

Insist that if you can't hear the bass there's no point in your playing. And that YOU CAN'T F***ING HEAR YOUR BASS.

+1. Refuse to go on until the sound guy gives you a way to hear yourself play.

Why is this so hard to understand for the sound guy?

edit: Based on my headphone experiments, I'd have a hard time really hearing myself with IEMs.

[F-Clef-Jef]

Wow, that's absurd! That's not a sound man, that's an ignoramous!
Is it possible for you to use a small amp onstage, but point it back at you, towards the back of the stage, so what little volume you'd need will not be aimed out into the house?
I.E.M.s would be perfect... I absolutely love them, and NEVER have any problem hearing my bass, or anyone else in the band.

[derrico1]

Originally Posted by gjsven

Again he was abused - "I've f***ing told you three times now, turn your f***ing amp down, you're too f***ing loud and I can't mix you from the desk!"

Bassist's response: "It might be just the terrible monitor mix, but what I heard was you telling me three times that you don't know what you are doing. The bass amp volume was just on zero; if you don't like the bass level *you* are pumping through FOH, I'll be happy to give you all the time you need to calm down, figure out your channel gain and faders, and fix it."

[gjsven]

Originally Posted by derrico1

Bassist's response: "It might be just the terrible monitor mix, but what I heard was you telling me three times that you don't know what you are doing. The bass amp volume was just on zero; if you don't like the bass level *you* are pumping through FOH, I'll be happy to give you all the time you need to calm down, figure out your channel gain and faders, and fix it."

Haha +1! Unfortunately my friend isn't the confrontational type, but lets just say the soundguy eventually worked out just how much of a tool he really was - last I heard he no longer works in this town!

[AlembicPlayer]

sound guys work for the band
not the other way around

someone needs to remind him of this

I work for national touring acts every week
I work in a sound company

we accommodate every situation you can imagine
the band is the customer and the customer is always right.

We have NEVER told the band what they can and can't do
EVER

it's our job to make their setup work in the house
not to make them comply to the limits of the house or engineers.

no backline or IEM's ?
as said earlier, this is complete rubbish.

[MazeMouse]

Originally Posted by gjsven

A similar example of this ignorance - A very experienced bassist friend of mine told me he was once abused by a soundguy during soundcheck because his rig was too loud. He turned it right down to bedroom level, but was once again abused. So he muted his cabinet, so all that was coming through was the DI signal from his Mesa Big Block. Again he was abused - "I've f***ing told you three times now, turn your f***ing amp down, you're too f***ing loud and I can't mix you from the desk!" My friend switched his amp off, put his bass down and walked away (which strangely enough fixed the problem of too much bass out the front).

I've had a soundguy telling me to turn down multiple times....
All those times my amp wasn't even turned on....

[5andFretless]

I have been in this situation, only the sound guy at least explained himself. The problem with systems like this is any foldback takes away from the front end - If you bring it up in the monitors it goes down at the front end. Bass uses the most power, so that is what these guys take out of the foldback first and are least interested in giving back. We solved it by running a splitter to a Peavey TKO 80 that sat on the floor right behind me and point at an angle across the stage.

[SERPENT865]

+1 Thats what im talking about , sometimes the sound people act as though they are making the music , granted these people can make or break your sound . I have found alittle cash incentive never hurt but if they are real A#$Holes then sometimes a trip to the alley for alittle re educating might do the trick or just bring your own sound person.

[modulusman]

Originally Posted by 3ccl6

The sound engineer/sound guy insists that our band only use the house system. No in-ear-monitors, no bass monitor...patch through the DI Box to house system and go. Not to mention that the house subwoofers are hung 25 feet above close tot he ceiling.

He claims that the house/audience hear the bass loud and clear. Meanwhile, I am having a hard time hearing anything at all. The vocals, guitar, drum and piano/keyboard drown everything out.

I know the system is brand new and we have a lot of tinkering to do. I suppose IEM would be a first step...but I have a feeling that most of you will say you'll still need a bass amp/monitor right beside you on stage?

Anyone have this problem before? Suggestion in fixing it? (And don't tell me to get a new sound guy.)

I can't understand why he doesn't want you to use IEMs. In my experience a band will sound better if they are using IEMs instead of wedges. DO you have your own monitor mix? What are you using for a wedge?

[drjojo42]

i think this sound guy wont be working very long in the sound industry.Sound reinforcement is a service ,paid by band or promoter.One of my first prioritys when running sound is monitors,I know if i get the monitors right i will have a job with the band as long as i want.