Bass / acoustic compatibility

tobie · #1 09-09-2009, 01:00 AM

I've had a weird experience in the last few days and was wondering if there's a new dimension in music I have to learn about.

I've jammed with acoustic instruments before without a problem but this week when doing so with two acoustic guitar 'strummers' (one plugged in, the other one not) and a keyboard, the mixed sound irritated my ears. Specially when I was playing bass on the D & G strings. It was almost as if someone was out of tune - and all of us did tune up before start of play. Also, the plugged-in strummer's sound did not really come through - all that one could hear from the amp was the 'raking' sound of each strum - and adding gain did not solve the problem.

I routed all instruments to my bass amp via my mixer. Eventually I hooked the acoustic seperately onto my Fender FM65 and I think it sounded a bit better, but I'm not sure.

Was I imagining things? I have an acoustic playing friend with whom I jam often and I have never experienced this with him. Is there a particular strumming technique that clashes with electric bass? Or is it the usage of a bass amp with acoustics? Or something I need to do differently when playing electric bass with acoustic instruments?

ByF · #2 09-09-2009, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tobie

It was almost as if someone was out of tune - and all of us did tune up before start of play.

Acoustic guitars are rarely as well intonated as electric guitars. The single bridge saddle only allows the guitar builder to go for a happy medium on the intonation, but unless the saddle is compensated for each string, it is seldom going to be perfect. So the open strings may have been in tune, but the fretted notes probably were not.

One reason I took up bass is that I was never happy with the sound of my old acoustic guitar--it always sounded out of tune to me, on at least some of the chords. It drove me nuts--I'd spend more time tuning than playing. Having learned more about intonation, as well as the equal temperament of fretted instruments, I now know that my ears were right--some of the chords really were out of tune.

Ed

mrkreuzschlitz · #3 09-09-2009, 02:44 PM

I just tend to stay in my octave and let them stay in theirs, but at the same time, when I do shift up into the D and G string "range", I tend to stay on the A and D string (5th fret and up, etc).

I was taught in orchestra to avoid moving from 4th finger to open on the next string, the tone just doesn't match. That stuck with electric bass. Try it out sometime.

jsolberg · #4 09-09-2009, 08:30 PM

I've been playing for four years in a three piece band, myself on electric bass and two plugged in acoustic guitars. The sound we have now is very good I think. The acoustic players experimented with some poor sounding amplification and finally both have settled on plugging direct into powered JBL Eons (10"). One runs through a Line-6 Pod XT Live, the other through a few effects pedals and a BBE Acoustimax. The right amplification made a huge difference in the sound. I play a Ric 4001 through an Ampeg BA115 which is a great sounding rig for lower volumes.

Kael · #5 09-09-2009, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ByF

Acoustic guitars are rarely as well intonated as electric guitars. The single bridge saddle only allows the guitar builder to go for a happy medium on the intonation, but unless the saddle is compensated for each string, it is seldom going to be perfect. So the open strings may have been in tune, but the fretted notes probably were not.

This... I deal with acoustic players in most of the acts I work with. This issue is annoying. Getting dirty looks regarding my intonation on fretless is annoying when the acoustic player has instrument issues. Which freaking note would you like me to match there bud.

tobie · #6 09-10-2009, 12:26 AM

Interesting replies, thanks guys. At least it confirms that my ears are not lying to me (I must say, in general they're quite sensitive to out-of-tune issues). Kael I was also handed a funny look - ironically from one of the guitar players!

R. Laevinus · #7 09-10-2009, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tobie

...the plugged-in strummer's sound did not really come through - all that one could hear from the amp was the 'raking' sound of each strum - and adding gain did not solve the problem. ...

Was this player's guitar using a magnetic soundhole pickup, or a piezo?

If he was using a piezo, WAS IT BUFFERED? (i.e., was there a preamp of any kind between the axe and the amp? This can be inside the guitar, in the cable, or in a box.)

If it was a piezo and there was no preamp, that's the cause. Slap the guy upside the head next time you see him, and tell him to get a preamp.

As per intonation: you guys are right, of course, but I suspect a piezo pup is to blame here. I've never amplified a piezo-equipped guitar or bass without a pre, but I used to play an electric violin fitted with a piezo - and without a good pre, all you hear is squeals, bow noise and feedback - since the OP stated strumming noise was coming through in a big way, I wonder if this might be it?

tobie · #8 09-10-2009, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R. Laevinus

Was this player's guitar using a magnetic soundhole pickup, or a piezo?

I'm not sure, but I don't think so. I've never had a good look at it, but will do so when I see it again. It had what looked like a built-in 'equalizer' on the side of the guitar, though - does that imply anything as far as the type of pickup is concerned?

R. Laevinus · #9 09-10-2009, 01:30 PM

Yes, it really does. That little control module almost always indicates that the axe is fitted with a piezoelectric pickup and/or an internal condenser mic - the pickup can be under the saddle or on the soundboard somewhere, but is usually (90% of the time) under the saddle.

The control panel also indicates that there IS an internal preamp in the axe - however, having the pieces does not mean the puzzle is solved!

Piezos can be VERY finicky - if it's a bad pickup, or a bad preamp, or a bad amp, or if the player does not know how to tweak his pre or his amp to suit his pup, or if the battery is low/dead/not even there, all these factors can result in a sound similar to what you've described.

If the problem persists, I'd suggest you try the following, in the following order:
1: Adjust his onboard controls for him - set everything (except volume, obviously) to 50%. If that seems to help, continue to adjust accordingly. If not, try 2.

2: Lower the high-end on the amp to reduce the strumming noise. If there's still a problem...

3: Change his battery. You might need his cooperation on this. And if all this has failed, take your pick of either giving him a softer pick or smashing his sixer over his head.

Good luck!

tobie · #10 09-11-2009, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R. Laevinus

take your pick of either giving him a softer pick or smashing his sixer over his head.

Thanks for the tips - I'll definately go through those steps because fact is he does not blend in with the rest of the band. The 4th (perhaps best?) option is of course that he must play unplugged.

R. Laevinus · #11 09-11-2009, 08:59 AM

Cheers, mate! I hope things work out.

A good piezo pickup on a nice guitar, properly buffered and run through a good amp, can provide the sweetest sounds ever heard. But - as you've noticed - piezos also have the capacity to sound quacky and harsh, and to over-emphasize undesirable parts of the sound.

But I forgot to mention that you can mic his guitar, too! In your OP, you mentioned running people through a mixer - this leads me to believe you've got a mic hanging around. You don't need anything fancy - a SM57 or 58 will do the trick just fine. Position it over his 12th fret, parallel to the neck, about one foot in front of his strings, and pointing towards the soundhole. Adjust gain and positioning accordingly. This might actually be your best option - and with a pinch of careful EQ and a spoonful of reverb, you can make a fifty-dollar Wal-Mart acoustic sound pretty darn good in such fashion. Sorry for neglecting to mention it before!

Good luck!