Is being a good bass player a dying art?

[socialleper]

Originally Posted by kanonfodr

Bass players did it to themselves, by listening to "Producers" and "Marketing People", and then agreeing. They do it today, out of ignorance (willful or not) or laziness.

Peace,
Greg

There is a lot to be said about producers running the show from behind the board. But I seem to remember that being the case with disco, which was very formulaic, and still had some crazy cool bass lines to dance to.

I remember asking my 15 year old step sun about how he hears music from when I was younger. I told him I could roughly date a recording of something my parents would listen to by the sound production, especially of the drums. He said what made my music sound "old" to him is that it had real instruments. Think about that one. Maybe its hard to find good musicians these days because the people that might be talented never try because there is no appeal to be a musician any more. Ponder that one too.
Maybe an epoch is ending. At some point classical died, at some point big band died. Maybe we are watching something die right now? [Makes hand gesture to simulate your mind blowing up]

[Kenzy]

Originally Posted by socialleper

Maybe an epoch is ending. At some point classical died, at some point big band died. Maybe we are watching something die right now? [Makes hand gesture to simulate your mind blowing up]

"Rock and roll can never die. There's more to the picture than meets the eye." - Neil Young

But, sadly, I think you may be right, mate. I think that this may be the burning out of rock music. With the transition to electronic music and vocal soloists that we've seen in recent music, coupled with the decline of music performed by musicians with "real" instruments, I could believe that it's coming to an end. I feel like it's on its last legs, when I hear the mainstream music that does use "real" instruments.

[Jhengsman]

I always maintain Jamerson is who he was in large part because the rest of the Funk Brothers left space. In modern music that space is occupied by something else as technology have given others the ability to fill the space. Then bands get into a music fight over who goes where. It is little different then a horn and string section being confronted with a keyboard doing what they once did when synthesizers could start handling chords.

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

Yep, no use blaming the guitarists. Most people know who John Paul Jones is, or Jack Bruce, and they had fair guitar players.

If most people know, they were/are unknown in my ethnic ghetto, then I submit they know them because of the band they were in, the singer and hits produced. Not because of their skill on bass

Originally Posted by ishkabibble

In response to the OP and the title, I don't think so.
The issue lies more in your own standards and rose tinted glasses.
With the availability of cheap, good quality instruments and the internet as a teaching tool yes, there are probably more bass players and more musicians than before, and yes, there are probably a fair few terrible ones who aren't up to snuff.
But,

Tell me how many players back then could *really* pull off any of Jamerson's lines?
Or how many bland root-only players there were chugging through some of the major pop hits of the day, just like now, with none of the *core fundamentals* that you talk about?
Now admittedly I'm just a young cat who was born in the 90s, I can't say that I was there. But even just looking at the Top 40 charts or whatever you can see it clear as day!
Music hasn't changed, it's just you who's changed.

I don't think there are more musicians then every before. The musician has faced a century of being replaced by the DJ in live venues and the last 40 years has seen an increase of sampling and reusing old product in recorded music as the mass audience seems to want just a fresh human voice.

I know Nathan Watts said in Standing In the Shadows of Motown that a Detroit bassist couldn't get a job unless he could clone Babbitt's Scorpio line but I imagine there were fewer Detroit clubs hiring in the 70s then there were in the 60s thus the competition was fierce. If a different genre was the local favorite those skills would not have been necessary.

As for the young players today I agree the free education available via the internet is an amazing tool. If they want to go down a path they can without an older cat mentoring him and sneaking him into club gigs. It will be like a young pre-teen gymnast can clone Nadia Comaneci's perfect 10 from 1976 before she gets out of elementary school. and judges will just look at her tribute act and yawn.

[JimmyM]

Oh wah wah wah...you all sound like a bunch of old people!

[Duke21]

I think there lots, no, tons of good young bass players out there. Maybe not many of the are Jaco or Squire but then, also back then there were only a limited amount of bass players that where Jaco or Squire.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by kanonfodr

If you're a bass player of any worth, and your ego isn't completely over-inflated, you'll continually go there. I've played shows to 5 people that I came out jazzed about, and shows to 500 that I was ready to puke afterwards. It happens -smile, nod, and give the crowd a good show.

Peace,
Greg

I just got home, decent gig.

True,

At my age I haven't seen everything, but I've seen and been through enough to know the whole "ego trip" thing belongs in high school. Which is where I left mine 45 years ago.

Blue

[chiron_griffin]

I'm a relatively young, and a pretty terrible bass player. Mind you I have less than a years experience and have been juggling learning bass between a full time job, full time school, and a long term relationship. I'm trying very hard at learning fundamentals, and exploring the role of bass in the music I would like to play. I have tried not to stick myself into one genre, which would be difficult at my skill level sense I'd like to play Jazz Rock and Avant Garde. Almost no one I know appreciates the music I listen to, and the few who do aren't musicians. So I've jammed with a few cats that want to play Bluesy rock, metal, and the like. After chatting up bassists in a few local bassists and paying attention to their playing, I'm sure I could play a lot (if not all) of their parts, which is discouraging as how low I would rank my chops. I live in a city where food is king and music is just a side dish. We have no lack of local talent and creativity, it just all seems to fit in a few neat boxes. I don't even have hopes of playing in a band or making money through music, it's just my current attempt at creative catharsis, as all other attempts have failed. I've wanted to play music my whole life and finally got the courage to buy an instrument (after a failed attempt at learning guitar in my preteen years, it's a long story that involves a father who knows nothing but negative reinforcement). If I had the chops I'd most likely be overplaying to a lot of your standards, but my dream is a three piece with a horn or keys as the melody maker. I agree that my generation wants the spotlight too much, but most of them have been told too often that they are special. I hope someday to play like John Greaves or Hugh Hopper, but I'd be much happier if I could teach a few peers who these wonderful musicians are.

[Bert Slide]

Being a good bass player is a craft. Being a great bass player is an art.

Neither are dying.

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by RaginRog

This is true. I recently went to see my friend's original metal band (The Communion), and one of their guitarists (my friend is the drummer) split his signal, with one half going into a guitar 1/2 stack, and the other signal into a 4x10 bass rig. He explained that they grew tired of finding a bass player after several auditions over a 3-4 month period. They are a well respected band, not slackers, and my friend has even toured Europe and Japan with Karen Black, and a couple of NY hardcore bands. He claims that good bass players are hard to find in the NY metropolitan area.

A Rock band without a bass player; that's sacrilege! Spray them with Holy water and I bet they catch on fire.

[Misty Mountain]

I love guys like Squire, JPJ, Lee, Flea, etc. I even work on playing their stuff. But in my current band (blues), the guitarist/BL is always wanting me to play more notes, while I feel simpler lines sound better in a majority of our tunes. It's about finding the right "space" in the song and the band. We have guitar, keys and sax as well as bass and drums, so that space can become quite crowded, and I feel the simpler lines feel better. I have always listened to what the music needs and could not care less how many notes I play, or if anyone notices me. A lot of mainstream music has always been about providing a good beat for dancing, and today's is no different. Not exactly the type of music that needs a virtuoso bass line. Doesn't mean the player can't do that stuff, just means he/she understands where the bass needs to be to fit the song. I think overly busy bassists that are interested in seeing how many notes they can fit in are more annoying than someone who just pumps the roots.. Even the aforementioned players know where to leave some space while playing intricate fills.

[Jazz Ad]

Many blues player are proficient and play busy lines without trouble.
Roscoe Beck is the first that comes to mind.

[RaginRog]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

A Rock band without a bass player; that's sacrilege! Spray them with Holy water and I bet they catch on fire.

Oh trust me, I chastised them a bit...but he explained that quick tempo/pick players seem to be harder to find.

[joegrant413]

Originally Posted by ImaStupidBaby

I might get eaten alive for this post but whatever: Bass guitar is a fairly easy instrument to pick up and start playing.. .. a good bassist ... know where to put a note, how long to play it. And that is not at all an easy thing to learn. ....

+1

[Itzayana]

No. Not at all.
I have been playing for more than 50 years and I would say that there are more really good bass players now than I can ever remember.
IMHO, bass playing has evolved and progressed a great deal. And continues to do so.

[TerraBass]

I havent read through all the posts and maybe someone already touched on this but being a good bass player, or just musician in general, requires the ability to play whats appropriate for the specific style or genre of music....you don't want to see some les claypool wannabe playing in a johnny cash cover band, unless he realizes he must suppress his inner les. lol thats an extreme case but you all get the point. its good to experiment and try some things out, but keep it within a certain range.

[jmattbassplaya]

Possible opinion change from me?

I played a sub gig last night with a local Memphis band. Is was a Pay-to-Play sort of situation, but I was getting paid a flat rate so I didn't really care one way the other. There were a lot of bands on the bill that night, so I decided to stick around and catch a few of them just to see what the local scene had to offer these days.

I was fortunate to catch the most popular band of the bunch that night as they happened to play only a set after our own. To say the least, each member was incredibly talented for their age, and they all were what I'd consider above average in ability. The bassist, in particular, had a lot of moves and tricks up his sleeve that were really impressive to see out of such a young player. That said, the guy overplayed everything. Their set had almost zero groove because of how wild the rhythm section (and, in particular, the bassist) was playing. I'm not going to lie, but I actually ended up preferring some of the 'less talented' groups because those groups at least kept a groove going the entire time.

I still think bassists, in general, shouldn't be afraid of stepping out and getting in the spotlight, but also think that it takes true skill for a player to know when is the time to step out and when is the time to just groove and hold down the low end.

[intheory]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

I still think bassists, in general, shouldn't be afraid of stepping out and getting in the spotlight, but also think that it takes true skill for a player to know when is the time to step out and when is the time to just groove and hold down the low end.

Agreed. Some people like a little gravy, some like a lot, but it can't all be gravy . I like to burn rubber and such, and get to do it a fair amount in my band, but I still need to keep the groove with my drummer and stay on point. Balance is the key!

[JimmyM]

I got a kick out of this story Ken Jung once told...he said there was this bass player in his scene when he started that all the other bassists goofed on for overplaying. Turns out his name was Tom Kennedy, and he was the only one of them who did anything major. So when people pontificate about playing simply on bass, I remember that story and laugh

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

I got a kick out of this story Ken Jung once told...he said there was this bass player in his scene when he started that all the other bassists goofed on for overplaying. Turns out his name was Tom Kennedy, and he was the only one of them who did anything major. So when people pontificate about playing simply on bass, I remember that story and laugh

Well in that case I better start over playing everything!

[soulman969]

Well when you consider that much of heavier rock music is riff based not blues based the role of the bassist changed. The bass line repeats the guitar driven riff or often plays a single note pedal over riff based chord changes. It stopped being that all important rhythmic link between the drums and the accompaniment instruments and voice.

Walking lines, modal scales, melodic playing and some of those great funk and soul based syncopation disappeared almost completely. Rap and/or hip made little or no use of it at all except to create low end thunder at high decibels to be played through monster sub woofers installed in the trunks of automobiles. Any keyboard triggered device could handle that so even the skills of a bassist in the studio weren't needed.

Some of us still preserve that original role of the bass in blues based rock and soul music though. I cut my teeth listening to the bass lines players like James Jamerson, Duck Dunn, Tommy Cogbill, Bob Glaub, Carol Kaye, Leland Sklar, Nathan East and Tommy Shannon improvised and I use that as the basis for my own improvisations.

When I teach I teach based on those methods and styles of playing so hopefully it won't go away entirely and become a lost art. Bass is the heartbeat of the band and while that heartbeat may be more feint than in the past it's still out there beating every weekend in bands that still play blues and the rock, funk and soul music of the '60s and '70s.