Is being a good bass player a dying art?

[intheory]

Originally Posted by bluewine

I would never comment on anyone's playing or tell someone how to play.

However, if I'm checking out a band and the bass player is up there slapping, popping and thumping playing nonsensically with no respect for the rest of the band like he's trying to win a junior high school talent show, I'll simply leave the room.

Blue

Well said. Good music is good music (of course there is room for differences of opinion here, but the point remains).

I've been accused of being busy at times myself... I take the criticism, see how I can improve, and move on.
In my area I rarely see bass players overplaying (in my interpretation of overplaying anyway).

I LOVE to get schooled though, aka hearing a bass player blow my mind . That is always a treat.

[s_mcsleazy]

i think you have to judge it in 2 ways.

cover bands:

are the bass players in the band talented enough to pull off the basslines WHILE keeping the song their own?

own material bands:

how well does their playing style fit in with the rest of the band?

[MarkMgibson]

If you're not "serving the song", what the hell are you serving? I don't know why that phrase riles people up so much.

[Kenzy]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

If you're not "serving the song", what the hell are you serving? I don't know why that phrase riles people up so much.

It's because it's so arbitrary. If you and I were to listen to the song, we'd probably end up with 2 very different lines, and we'll both say that we're "serving the song". It's the old "there's more than one way to serve a song" aphorism.

[bluewine]

[quote=

I LOVE to get schooled though, aka hearing a bass player blow my mind . That is always a treat. [/QUOTE]

So do I. Being brought back into reality is good for all of us.

For all you younger players out there gigging for the first time in your lives. When your friends and others approach you and tell you how great you sound and play, take it with a grain of salt.

I'm not saying your not great, but being humble in this business goes s long way.

Blue

[JumboJack]

Originally Posted by bluewine

For all you younger players out there gigging for the first time in your lives. When your friends and others approach you and tell you how great you sound and play, take it with a grain of salt.

Chances are your not that great.

Blue

You are a bitter, bitter man........

[Luke S Mouse]

"Bad" in the sense of they can't pull their weight and hold down the bottom end or "Bad" in the sense of not playing the bass as a solo instrument?
I see the holding down of the bottom end to be my first priority, anything else is an afterthought. I stress the whole "sideman" role typically, which several guys have already mentioned. I don't know I just read the first page of the thread, someone probably already said this.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by JumboJack

You are a bitter, bitter man........

Not bitter at all, just a friendly opinion.

I guess maybe it something that has only been good for me.

Doesn't mean anyone is not good.

Not sure how you got "bitter" out of that.

Look at it this way, none of us are great.

Being humble, that's not a good thing anymore.

Blue

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by Luke S Mouse

I stress the whole "sideman" role typically, which several guys have already mentioned. I don't know I just read the first page of the thread, someone probably already said this.

I'm a full member an integral part of the band not a sideman.

Blue

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

If you're not "serving the song", what the hell are you serving? I don't know why that phrase riles people up so much.

It's not the phrase itself, it's the way it's used. The root/5th police use the phrase to make it sound like there is some agreed on way to serve the song and if you play too many notes you are breaking with that agreed on standard. It is a way of making it sound like there is some objective measure that we have all agreed on.

[El Raro]

Some music simply doesn't call for precision, perfect technique or virtuoso chops. Some players are happy playing in the pocket because that's what their music requires of them. In saying that, I listen to a lot of bands whose bass players absolutely dominate recordings and the stage as far as skill, technique etc is concerned. But these are highly technical and musical bands so that level of skill and proficiency is a necessity in the band.

Personally, I play in a gritty hardcore/sludge band. My role is simple - provide a monstrous backline that's thicker than Odin's beard. Tone is everything (overdrives, fuzz, chorus etc) and I'm more than happy playing chord progressions and along with the guitars (with he occasional fill) rather than taking control over the spotlight and showing off. My presence is felt and heard just as much as the soloist bass players doing rounds.

Does that make me any less of a musician than them? I'd like to think not. They may be more musically tuned that I but that's what their music asks of them. Given the opportunity, I don't think those players would be comfortable playing with the same attack and aggression as I do. Its just a different style of playing. Each player brings something different to the table.

[lmfreeman9]

I didn't read the whole thread but disagree with the OP.

I have lived in Miami, Chicago and Tucson the last 10 years and everywhere there are excellent, tasty bass players. I do agree that many are slapping and some overplay in an effort to be heard. Some of that is good, but how and when you do it is critical.

What is a dying art is LIVE MUSIC! There must be over a 100 bands here competing for 20 venues. If a band plays out monthly, they are doing pretty well. Making a living is next to impossible. The best musicians and bands leave.

[socialleper]

Originally Posted by lmfreeman9

What is a dying art is LIVE MUSIC! There must be over a 100 bands here competing for 20 venues. If a band plays out monthly, they are doing pretty well. Making a living is next to impossible. The best musicians and bands leave.

I really think this has a lot to do with it. Market forces contribute to this sort of thing. When people "go out" they really aren't looking for live bands, regardless of genre. When I go to Las Vegas, all the huge clubs that have mile long lines are using DJs. I've been at Hollywood metal shows with some pretty big names that were ended early because they convert to a dance club later and there's a line of metro lady-boys and hoochies lined up outside. Really the only place I've been lately that had a solid band presence was Bourbon St in New Orleans. Hell I can't remember the last time I was at a wedding with a live band.
If there's no market for the talent, the talent leaves and becomes a stock trader or something. There isn't a lot of money left in being a musician anymore and certainly not a lot left for rock acts.

[SquierJazz72]

I'm a full member an integral part of the band not a sideman.

To me, I am a bassist, and a musician in my own right. I never have, and never would, apply terms like "sideman" or "supporting" to myself.

However, I do strive to apply a professional mentality to myself, even at home. As such, how much outside definition of my role and my playing I will accept is dependent on the circumstances I described in an earlier post.

But even if playing on someone else's dime, I don't consider myself a sideman or supporting musician, even if they do. I am a hired bassist, fulfilling the agreed upon obligations, no more, no less.

[bongostealth]

I do honestly believe that the OP has a valid point. There are way too many producers who would rather not pay a decent bass player because all most people think about when considering a bass player is "the pocket". And many of these people are people who play lead instruments and consider any type of bass playing technique other than "the pocket" to be unnecessary and "in the way".

Also, with so many synthesizers out there that do everything, it's easy for any joe-schmoe to come up with a simple bass line. Way too many people do not appreciate the depth and immensity of possibility found in the talent of playing bass. Everyone just thinks bass means not being in anybody's way. While there are situations where this is absolutely true, look at all of the tracks that Jaco played on that weren't within a complex jazz ensemble context. He still freakin' BURNED through every single track! Nobody complained about his excellent playing unless there was some other guitarist or keyboardist that just wanted to hog all of the attention.

Just my two cents.

[SquierJazz72]

And many of these people are people who play lead instruments and consider any type of bass playing technique other than "the pocket" to be unnecessary and "in the way".

Unfortunately, I think some of these people are also some of the bass players themselves.

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by SquierJazz72

Unfortunately, I think some of these people are also some of the bass players themselves.

Whenever a post starts out, "The role of the bass player is ..." you can be sure everything else they say will be wrong too.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by lfmn16

It's not the phrase itself, it's the way it's used. The root/5th police use the phrase to make it sound like there is some agreed on way to serve the song and if you play too many notes you are breaking with that agreed on standard. It is a way of making it sound like there is some objective measure that we have all agreed on.

This!

I hate to say it but the older I get the more I think the people who fall into that particular camp only say that stuff because they're not skilled enough to play anything else. Ironically and IME, it seems like the least skilled players are often the most vocal in regards to music and how things 'should' be played. The most skilled players are too busy gigging to even have the chance to say anything

[Chuck King]

Originally Posted by lfmn16

The reason I hate the "serve the song," "what the song calls for," "tasteful," and other comments in that vein is that they are still based on opinion. I just don't get why some people feel they have the right to tell other people what they ought to play, or that they are too busy, or that they aren't playing what the song calls for. Comments like these offer the appearance of some objective criteria, but it's all just somebody's opinion. Every body is entitled to their opinion, they just aren't entitled to set the standards for everyone else.

Originally Posted by lfmn16

It's not the phrase itself, it's the way it's used. The root/5th police use the phrase to make it sound like there is some agreed on way to serve the song and if you play too many notes you are breaking with that agreed on standard. It is a way of making it sound like there is some objective measure that we have all agreed on.

This sounds to me like the argument of somebody being defensive because nobody likes his playing.

There are no set criteria, but, there often tends to be a consensus about what's good or bad. Yes, that's opinion, of course. But, in some circumstances, opinions count. You can play whatever you want, but there's no rule that says everybody is going to like it. If you want to get gigs, if you want to be known as a good player rather than an annoying wanker, you need to work within the parameters of what's generally considered good.

If your own concept of your art or whatever requires you to go outside those parameters, you are free to do that, but other people are free to not invite you to play with them or to not listen to your music. The "rules" about "serving the song" are only rules to be followed if you care about pleasing an audience. But, to the extent art is about communication between artist and audience, if what you're playing turns people off because it's "too busy" or you "aren't playing what the song calls for", then your art fails.

[SquierJazz72]

I hate to say it but the older I get the more I think the people who fall into that particular camp only say that stuff because they're not skilled enough to play anything else.

I tend to agree. Seems sometimes some use it as a justification not to go past a certain level. If you can't, or don't want to fine. Just don't hold it over others who can/do.

The most skilled players are too busy gigging to even have the chance to say anything

Also, maybe some of the really skilled players became that way by just embracing their instrument fully and leaving aside the more restrictive aspects of the "how bass should be played" attitude.