Is being a good bass player a dying art?

[bass12]

Originally Posted by fdeck

Maybe the thread title should have been: "Is electric bass playing a dying art?" I'd have a hard time imagining an upright player saying this. While upright bass certainly involves working within the stylistic limits of historical genres, the "role of a bass player" seems to be much less confining.

Yeah, but that's only because, when it comes to uprights, 85% of the people listening to the band can't tell what the bass is doing anyway.

[jungleheat]

I pretty much agree with what jmatt just said.

"Serving the song" doesn't have to mean "playing boring parts that a well trained primate could pull off". If you can play a more complex, interesting line that fits within the context of the song, why NOT push the envelope a little? Listen to Spirits in the Material World by the Police. That bass line is busy as hell (and pretty much impossible to play and sing at the same time), yet that song is extremely catchy and one of their more popular songs (which is saying something, considering they have some of the most popular songs ever). In the late 60s and through the 70s, you had these guys like Bruce, JPJ, Squire, Lee, even Larry Graham and Bootsy, redefining the aural and musical role of bass and drawing more attention to it, without just being "show offs". And while a guy like Stanley Clarke would tend to play a lot of pretty flashy stuff, he could just about make you cry with some of the interesting, tasteful stuff he could pull off, either on electric or upright (check out the title track to Return to Forever's Romantic Warrior album for a great example).

Who do we have now that fills that role of pushing the envelope, or at least just being a "yeah he's damn good" kind of player? Of "mega" bands, Justin Chancellor is one of the few I can think of. And as awesome as Tool is, they still don't come close to the influence or popularity of a Led Zeppelin, and besides that, they've been around for 20+ years and are all in the 40s by now, so not exactly the bleeding edge of young people making music.

Musicianship should totally be a renewable resource, but for a variety of reasons, we are running out of stock at an alarming rate.

[DWBass]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

I'm not saying we should replace tastefulness with ego-driven basslines. What I am saying, however, is that we shouldn't be afraid to step out and do something unique on our instrument in the context of a band. Guys like Flea and Claypool became big names in the music business because they could play over-the-top lines while simultaneously remaining solid and grooving. They could steal attention without completely stealing the song, and all the while they could keep the groove thumping along. Sometimes all a song needs is a simple 8th note, root rocking line, but I think (a lot of the time) a lot of us bass players go there simply because it's easy and because it downplays the chance of confrontation from guitarists and singers because we're stealing spotlight. We shouldn't be afraid to do that. Our instrument is capable of much more than simply being a support unit.

Flea and Claypool are also in original music bands so they can do what ever they want. They are great at what they do and it works for them. As for cover bands, I don't have a problem with embellishing at all. I agree with what you say. Just make it tasteful and make it work! Hell, I embellish all the time. But I know where to draw the line. There are many who go way past that line (i.e. our old drummer).

Lastly, I don't just talk about it, I provide examples of poor taste. Granted this is a thread about bass but here is a video of the drummer we fired. Tune is Fool For You by Cee Lo. Listen to the original first. Then view the video. He changes the song into a rock thrash song. Just way over the top playing. In fact, it was so bad, I had no room to do anything other than just play the song straight. http://youtu.be/TAcHz70MVX4

That was his last day!

[levonrocks]

I thought that bass players just keep getting better and more in the pocket, but I guess I was wrong. I grew up in a small town called Hackettstown, NJ. I don't know why, but there are a whole lot of amazing musicians in our little town. Just in Hackettstown, there several local bass players that are phenomenal. I do think that overplaying is an epidemic, but there are still a ton of solid players out there. You just gotta know where to look.

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by jungleheat

I pretty much agree with what jmatt just said.

"Serving the song" doesn't have to mean "playing boring parts that a well trained primate could pull off". If you can play a more complex, interesting line that fits within the context of the song, why NOT push the envelope a little? Listen to Spirits in the Material World by the Police. That bass line is busy as hell (and pretty much impossible to play and sing at the same time), yet that song is extremely catchy and one of their more popular songs (which is saying something, considering they have some of the most popular songs ever). In the late 60s and through the 70s, you had these guys like Bruce, JPJ, Squire, Lee, even Larry Graham and Bootsy, redefining the aural and musical role of bass and drawing more attention to it, without just being "show offs". And while a guy like Stanley Clarke would tend to play a lot of pretty flashy stuff, he could just about make you cry with some of the interesting, tasteful stuff he could pull off, either on electric or upright (check out the title track to Return to Forever's Romantic Warrior album for a great example).

Who do we have now that fills that role of pushing the envelope, or at least just being a "yeah he's damn good" kind of player? Of "mega" bands, Justin Chancellor is one of the few I can think of. And as awesome as Tool is, they still don't come close to the influence or popularity of a Led Zeppelin, and besides that, they've been around for 20+ years and are all in the 40s by now, so not exactly the bleeding edge of young people making music.

Musicianship should totally be a renewable resource, but for a variety of reasons, we are running out of stock at an alarming rate.

I agree as well. Rhythm section are allowed to have style. I hear very few bassists or drummers these days who have an original unique style that people recognise. Playing "in the pocket" doesn't mean you have to be boring.

[SquierJazz72]

I don't know if being "good bass player" is a dying art. Depends on what you consider good. Technically, anyone who just stays in the groove, supports the song, and does nothing else, is good(or at least good enough)

But it does seem a lot of the flash and people willing to push the instrument in tasteful and creative ways while remaining supportive are rarer.

It does almost seem divided sometimes between those who stay in the groove, in the most basic ways vs those who go over the top. There is a middle ground. Maybe more bassists should be exploring that territory, when they can.

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by SquierJazz72

I don't know if being "good bass player" is a dying art. Depends on what you consider good. Technically, anyone who just stays in the groove, supports the song, and does nothing else, is good(or at least good enough)

But it does seem a lot of the flash and people willing to push the instrument in tasteful and creative ways while remaining supportive are rarer.

It does almost seem divided sometimes between those who stay in the groove, in the most basic ways vs those who go over the top. There is a middle ground. Maybe more bassists should be exploring that territory, when they can.

Yes, is all about being adventurous and taking some chances. It won't always work, but eventually you'll find that middle ground you're talking about.

[Jarrett]

Originally Posted by SquierJazz72

I don't know if being "good bass player" is a dying art. Depends on what you consider good. Technically, anyone who just stays in the groove, supports the song, and does nothing else, is good(or at least good enough)

It does almost seem divided sometimes between those who stay in the groove, in the most basic ways vs those who go over the top. There is a middle ground. Maybe more bassists should be exploring that territory, when they can.

Here's the rub. I see less and less players in the mainstream that can *really* stay in the groove and support the song as well as guys in the 60's-70's could.

And a "good" bass player can do both. They can stay in the groove and explore sonic territories within the context of the song. That's what makes them good. I'm just seeing less and less of it in mainstream music.

But like others have pointed out. Maybe its the current music and not the current musician? I'm not sure I'm fully on board with that.

Oteil provides a great example of what I'm talking about here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81lIga4eLfI

[PluckyThump]

The current music scene is very vocalist-oriented and the most popular music right now is very simple. You have the various Idol shows, The Voice, etc. which are all about singing. Somebody with a powerful, beautiful voice gets up on stage and nails it, that really moves people. Vic Wooten gets up on stage and nails a bass solo, most people will change the channel. Look at what sells today. Justin Bieber doesn't even have a band. The Sheepdogs play at the level of a good high school band but they have excellent vocals. It's all about vocals today and so you get generic backing bands that play straight-ahead so as not to trip-up the singer. Live kareoke.

You can get good sophisticated music on shows like Austin City Limits but how many people watch that? Musicianship is a niche, it's not for the masses. Maybe it's never been for the masses but we are so overwhelmed by mass-marketing now that it's completely lost in the mix.

[SquierJazz72]

I kind of see less and less in mainstream music anyway. At least in the stuff it seems is actively being promoted.

And it seems many other musicians often have less respect for their bass players than they should. Just on here there are a fair number of threads about bassists having problems with other band members over their roles, how they should play, or even just their ability to be heard at all.

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by PluckyThump

The current music scene is very vocalist-oriented and the most popular music right now is very simple. You have the various Idol shows, The Voice, etc. which are all about singing. Somebody with a powerful, beautiful voice gets up on stage and nails it, that really moves people. Vic Wooten gets up on stage and nails a bass solo, most people will change the channel. Look at what sells today. Justin Bieber doesn't even have a band. The Sheepdogs play at the level of a good high school band but they have excellent vocals. It's all about vocals today and so you get generic backing bands that play straight-ahead so as not to trip-up the singer. Live kareoke.

You can get good sophisticated music on shows like Austin City Limits but how many people watch that? Musicianship is a niche, it's not for the masses. Maybe it's never been for the masses but we are so overwhelmed by mass-marketing now that it's completely lost in the mix.

That's a good point - music today does seem to be all about the singer (the commercial stuff, anyway). I'm not sure that musicianship has always been a "niche", though that may be the case these days. It was certainly appreciated in the late 60's through the mid-70's with bands like Led Zep, Cream, The Who, Pink Floyd, to name a few.

I wonder what the last commercially successful concept album was? I bet it was a long time ago.

[SquierJazz72]

music today does seem to be all about the singer (the commercial stuff, anyway).

That's what I am noticing. Less emphasis on bands at all. More on groups and singers, backed largely by very simple or electronic music. Mainstream wise, anyway. There are still plenty of great artists outside of that, which is where i usually look.

There's always been crappy music, over-promoted music based on looks over substance, etc....

It just seems in the past, it was a little more mixed in with the better stuff, and actual, fully formed bands.

[bluewine]

Who and where are the new young and up coming Willie Weeks and Chuck Raineys?

[Floyd Eye]

Well, I guess there are a lot of crappy or average bass players, but ( at least around here) there are a lot of really great ones too. I'm not sure where I fall into this category. I think I am a solid player and people compliment me a lot and I have no shortage of bands trying to recruit me, but personally I think of myself as holding my own and that's about it. I see bass players in local bands all the time that I think smoke me.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by Floyd Eye

Well, I guess there are a lot of crappy or average bass players, but ( at least around here) there are a lot of really great ones too. I'm not sure where I fall into this category. I think I am a solid player and people compliment me a lot and I have no shortage of bands trying to recruit me, but personally I think of myself as holding my own and that's about it. I see bass players in local bands all the time that I think smoke me.

Me, I have good nights, but I also have nights when I feel like I should hang it up.

Blue

[RaginRog]

Originally Posted by scottbass

(2-1/2) A related theory is that heavy metal power chording supplies much of the low-end punch that was previously supplied by talented bassists.

This is true. I recently went to see my friend's original metal band (The Communion), and one of their guitarists (my friend is the drummer) split his signal, with one half going into a guitar 1/2 stack, and the other signal into a 4x10 bass rig. He explained that they grew tired of finding a bass player after several auditions over a 3-4 month period. They are a well respected band, not slackers, and my friend has even toured Europe and Japan with Karen Black, and a couple of NY hardcore bands. He claims that good bass players are hard to find in the NY metropolitan area.

[Floyd Eye]

Originally Posted by bluewine

Me, I have good nights, but I also have nights when I feel like I should hang it up.

Blue

Well, I am not alone then. .

[socialleper]

There is a lot of things at work here:
1.) Local music is largely crap these days. Bands can be fast tracked in a way that wasn't possible before because of digital distribution. If someone has some real talent, they don't want to slog through local bar gigs.
2.) Music isn't very bass focused anymore. If you look back at a lot of the music from the 70s the bass had a lot more presence in the mix. That's not because they were that much better, but because that was the style. Disco, funk, Motown all had lots of bass, so did rock. Dance music now is all electronic and regular radio rock is very guitar focused, and also on life support.
3.) There are some bad @$$ mofo's out there, I'm guessing you are looking in the wrong places. Pop music is crap, always has been, and is completely voice centered right now. No room for any talent of any kind. The good musicians are making music that will never be popular and is too out there to play in small clubs or bars because it isn't catchy or easy to listen to. Guys like Nick Schendzielos, Ryan Martinie, Alex Webster and Jeroen Paul Thesseling are absolute monsters who could probably show the "masters" a thing or two, but are famous for music that makes people fear for their souls. You aren't going to get a lot of bar gigs playing music that entices the patrons to kill each other.

[kanonfodr]

Originally Posted by bluewine

Me, I have good nights, but I also have nights when I feel like I should hang it up.

Blue

If you're a bass player of any worth, and your ego isn't completely over-inflated, you'll continually go there. I've played shows to 5 people that I came out jazzed about, and shows to 500 that I was ready to puke afterwards. It happens -smile, nod, and give the crowd a good show.

Originally Posted by SquierJazz72

That's what I am noticing. Less emphasis on bands at all. More on groups and singers, backed largely by very simple or electronic music. Mainstream wise, anyway. There are still plenty of great artists outside of that, which is where i usually look.

There's always been crappy music, over-promoted music based on looks over substance, etc....

It just seems in the past, it was a little more mixed in with the better stuff, and actual, fully formed bands.

We tend to remember the better parts, but there were lots of crap bands in the 70s, lots of crap bands in the 80s, even more crap bands in the 90s, and holy crap - there are plenty of crap bands in the new millenium. The crap is just more visible because it's "In" right now.

Originally Posted by socialleper

2.) Music isn't very bass focused anymore. If you look back at a lot of the music from the 70s the bass had a lot more presence in the mix. That's not because they were that much better, but because that was the style. Disco, funk, Motown all had lots of bass, so did rock. Dance music now is all electronic and regular radio rock is very guitar focused, and also on life support.

Bass players did it to themselves, by listening to "Producers" and "Marketing People", and then agreeing. They do it today, out of ignorance (willful or not) or laziness.

Peace,
Greg

[Jazz Ad]

I know I put a lot of love in my lines and polish them to the max, with subtle accents and an emphasis on harmony and counterpoint of other players' lines.
I see a lot of people do the same but I also see a lot of bands with straight eight notes all along. As long as it works it's good.