Business vs. Band

[Bert Slide]

the public gets what they deserve
not what they demand
unless we all decide to be
a business, not a band

Agent Orange- "Breakdown"


A "family" can be defined as a group of people who are related by blood. To many, "family" means much more than that.

A "band" can be defined as a group of musicians who share the same stage. To some it means much more than that.

I have never been a pro musician in that I have never made my living solely by playing music. Even in my 40's now, I will only play with friends with whom I share a bond that goes beyond shared economic interests. Sure, we go about it in a professional way and enjoy making a few hundred extra bucks on the weekend, but that is not why I do it. To me a "band" denotes comraderie and common goals and interests and friendship off the stage as well as on. I enjoy playing music I love with people I like for others who appreciate it.

This is in no way meant to diminish the hard-working full-time pro musicians that play whatever, whenever and with whomever in order to put food on the table. I have the utmost respect for what you do. Personally, I just wouldn't enjoy some of what you have to do to make a living.

I do, however, take offense at some of the comments I see on TB from other weekend warriors who seem to have a condescending attitude toward those who refuse to play covers for cash or genres of music they hate to make a buck. Really, who do you think you are to lecture others about professionalism and don't tell me "a band is a business" because for many it is not. Just because you make some spare coin regurgitating radio hits for the lowest common denominator of music fans doesn't make you an expert on "band ethics". Remember that for many, it is not about making money and they may not consider their band as a "business."

Again, not meant to insult true professional musicians or part timers who relish a full dance floor and choose to play what it takes to fill it up. To each his own. I just get the vibe from some on here that if you are not into it for the same reason they are and you don't always treat your band as a "business" then you are somehow less of a musician. I see far less condescension from the members of originals bands who could be on here decrying all money motivated cover bands as "sellouts".

[pmchenry]

Right there with you man. I do this stuff for fun and as a creative release. We play lots of free shows, hall shows, and basement shows and we have a blast doing it. It wouldn't have the same feeling for me if I was just trying to pack the house at the local bar and "sell drinks for the owner." Doesn't mean I go around bashing cover bands and people who make their living doing this... to each their own!

[intheory]

interesting thoughts. I think that the key is when band members are on the same page with expectations, it can work very well. I am in one of those "serious" working bands that works hard to fill our venues and please the crowd and venue owners. We are constantly working on improving our performance and increasing our pay, but we also very much enjoy what we do. For me, it's my life passion...and it also happens to be my secondary income source.

[Phalex]

Meh. I treat it like a business. My gauge for my band being appreciated is #1) the size of the crowd, and #2) getting paid.

That being said, I really hate writing music. I also hate the pretentious songwriters I've worked with in the past that can't accept that every song they've ever written might not all be the next Bohemian Rhapsody.

I get off playing music onstage to a packed house, and the guy that hired us showing us some respect by forking out a wad of cash for doing it. Don't get me wrong, it's tons of fun, but I don't miss the days of watching the pretentious songwriter bitch at the 10 people that showed up to watch us play for nothing, or next to nothing, because they were the only people to show up.

If you're getting what you need out of the band your in, more power to you!

[Bert Slide]

Originally Posted by Phalex

Meh. I treat it like a business. My gauge for my band being appreciated is #1) the size of the crowd, and #2) getting paid.


If you're getting what you need out of the band your in, more power to you!

That is the crux of the biscuit right there! I'm not trying to tell others what they should be getting out of their band experience and I dislike like to be told what my goals should be or how I should go about it. Friendly advice when asked for is, of course, always appreciated.

[Phalex]

I think my negative experiences with the "Creative types" really color my view point. I don't have the time to type up the myriad reasons why I still hate the "Pretentious Songwriter" close to 20 years after the fact, but OH MAN!!!!

Keep it low!

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by Bert Slide

the public gets what they deserve
not what they demand
unless we all decide to be
a business, not a band

Agent Orange- "Breakdown"

A "family" can be defined as a group of people who are related by blood. To many, "family" means much more than that.

A "band" can be defined as a group of musicians who share the same stage. To some it means much more than that.

I have never been a pro musician in that I have never made my living solely by playing music. Even in my 40's now, I will only play with friends with whom I share a bond that goes beyond shared economic interests. Sure, we go about it in a professional way and enjoy making a few hundred extra bucks on the weekend, but that is not why I do it. To me a "band" denotes comraderie and common goals and interests and friendship off the stage as well as on. I enjoy playing music I love with people I like for others who appreciate it.

This is in no way meant to diminish the hard-working full-time pro musicians that play whatever, whenever and with whomever in order to put food on the table. I have the utmost respect for what you do. Personally, I just wouldn't enjoy some of what you have to do to make a living.

I do, however, take offense at some of the comments I see on TB from other weekend warriors who seem to have a condescending attitude toward those who refuse to play covers for cash or genres of music they hate to make a buck. Really, who do you think you are to lecture others about professionalism and don't tell me "a band is a business" because for many it is not. Just because you make some spare coin regurgitating radio hits for the lowest common denominator of music fans doesn't make you an expert on "band ethics". Remember that for many, it is not about making money and they may not consider their band as a "business."

Again, not meant to insult true professional musicians or part timers who relish a full dance floor and choose to play what it takes to fill it up. To each his own. I just get the vibe from some on here that if you are not into it for the same reason they are and you don't always treat your band as a "business" then you are somehow less of a musician. I see far less condescension from the members of originals bands who could be on here decrying all money motivated cover bands as "sellouts".

I take issue with your position.

First of all, I have made it clear that I love good originals bands. I go out to these types of bands any night I might not have a show.

You say to each his own. Well at my age 59, being in an originals band would make no sense.

I am in this for my love of live performance and in my neck of the woods most originals bands gig once a month for free. Thats simply not for me. More power to my friends and originals bands who are fine with the 1 unpaid gig a month model.

I don't hate on originals, however in some cases it seems like a waste of time. But that's merely my opinion.

Off topic

I came into playing bass and embracing pop culture at a very young age, back in the mid 60s
So, sure my opinions will seem questionable and dated to some of you "new comers". I don't mean to come off as offensive to anyone.

Blue

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by Phalex

Meh. I treat it like a business. My gauge for my band being appreciated is #1) the size of the crowd, and #2) getting paid.

That being said, I really hate writing music. I also hate the pretentious songwriters I've worked with in the past that can't accept that every song they've ever written might not all be the next Bohemian Rhapsody.

I get off playing music onstage to a packed house, and the guy that hired us showing us some respect by forking out a wad of cash for doing it. Don't get me wrong, it's tons of fun, but I don't miss the days of watching the pretentious songwriter bitch at the 10 people that showed up to watch us play for nothing, or next to nothing, because they were the only people to show up.

If you're getting what you need out of the band your in, more power to you!

I'm with you on all the points above.


Blue

[ChrisB2]

Originally Posted by Bert Slide

the public gets what they deserve
not what they demand
unless we all decide to be
a business, not a band

Agent Orange- "Breakdown"


A "family" can be defined as a group of people who are related by blood. To many, "family" means much more than that.

A "band" can be defined as a group of musicians who share the same stage. To some it means much more than that.

I have never been a pro musician in that I have never made my living solely by playing music. Even in my 40's now, I will only play with friends with whom I share a bond that goes beyond shared economic interests. Sure, we go about it in a professional way and enjoy making a few hundred extra bucks on the weekend, but that is not why I do it. To me a "band" denotes comraderie and common goals and interests and friendship off the stage as well as on. I enjoy playing music I love with people I like for others who appreciate it.

This is in no way meant to diminish the hard-working full-time pro musicians that play whatever, whenever and with whomever in order to put food on the table. I have the utmost respect for what you do. Personally, I just wouldn't enjoy some of what you have to do to make a living.

I do, however, take offense at some of the comments I see on TB from other weekend warriors who seem to have a condescending attitude toward those who refuse to play covers for cash or genres of music they hate to make a buck. Really, who do you think you are to lecture others about professionalism and don't tell me "a band is a business" because for many it is not. Just because you make some spare coin regurgitating radio hits for the lowest common denominator of music fans doesn't make you an expert on "band ethics". Remember that for many, it is not about making money and they may not consider their band as a "business."

Again, not meant to insult true professional musicians or part timers who relish a full dance floor and choose to play what it takes to fill it up. To each his own. I just get the vibe from some on here that if you are not into it for the same reason they are and you don't always treat your band as a "business" then you are somehow less of a musician. I see far less condescension from the members of originals bands who could be on here decrying all money motivated cover bands as "sellouts".

I don't know. The condescension goes both ways and I actually see it oppisite from you. But I guess that's to be expected.

I play only cover music, but it's hardly for the money. I play because I love the bass, I love making music with others, making entertainment for others, and yeah, putting a little G.A.S. money in my mad money stash. Yeah I'm in it to have fun filling dance floors with people who love to hear us regurgitate (poor word choice unless you want to appear condescending) radio hits. And your descriptions of band types is pretty limited. My band is like neither of your descriptions, it's more like a family of distantly-related drunk uncles who alternate between hugging then slugging each other. And we like it just fine, thank you.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by intheory

For me, it's my life passion...and it also happens to be my secondary income source.

We are on the same page. I came from 2 originals bands before I moved onto a busy blues / rock cover band. So, I know what it's like to play to small crowds for no pay.

I like having an extra $300.00 (fun money) in my wallet after a weekend.

This pass weekend after our summerfest show we were back in the bars for the weekend.

We had a packed house in pewaukee. The band was locked in, and to hear the aplause and cheers at the end of a song, it felt wonderful.

[Bert Slide]

Originally Posted by ChrisB2

I don't know. The condescension goes both ways and I actually see it oppisite from you. But I guess that's to be expected.

I play only cover music, but it's hardly for the money. I play because I love the bass, I love making music with others, making entertainment for others, and yeah, putting a little G.A.S. money in my mad money stash. Yeah I'm in it to have fun filling dance floors with people who love to hear us regurgitate (poor word choice unless you want to appear condescending) radio hits. And your descriptions of band types is pretty limited. My band is like neither of your descriptions, it's more like a family of distantly-related drunk uncles who alternate between hugging then slugging each other. And we like it just fine, thank you.

HA! My band fits the drunken uncle hug/slug fest too but I love 'em and wouldn't want it any different.

You're right the "regurgitating radio hits" comment does come off as a little condescending and I apologize if I offended anyone. I meant it directed at certain posters(you know who you are) who are weekend warriors playing in mediocre cover bands who feel the need to tell others how they should manage their "business." And it does kinda make me want to puke when I hear "Crazy Bitch" or "Play that Funky Music" for the zillionth time. But that's just me, to each his own.

[Bert Slide]

Originally Posted by bluewine

I like having an extra $300.00 (fun money) in my wallet after a weekend.

That's about what I average per weekend too and while we play mostly covers, we play no songs we don't enjoy listening to.

You are not special Bluewine. You are also on the low end of the commercial band totem pole. Your endless pontificating becomes tiring after a while.

[fraublugher]

Originally Posted by Bert Slide

we play mostly covers, we play no songs we don't enjoy listening to.

.

This is so KEY!

There's so many great tunes in the world , why sully your set with mediocrity, or waste time trying to make bad sound good .
Oh , I'm sorry , I think it was Blue's turn to post.

j/k bluewine , I think it's good that you're making the effort to teach and impart on the newer guys , but for those of us with grey hair, it's sometime 's akin to water-boarding.

Please carry on

[pklima]

IME "for fun" bands are no fun. Like Phalex, I've had lousy experiences working with artistic types, including very nice and completely mentally healthy people. I've learned the hard way that if you like to write songs, we'll never see eye to eye.

Treating the band as a business makes everything so much easier, and it lets me play a lot more songs I like.

[pmchenry]

I guess my issue is that, in my limited experience on TB, I've noticed that paid musicians who play in cover bands seem to scoff at musicians who play originals for the fun of it. Not all of them, obviously, but enough to cause a perceptive trend. I haven't seen the same in reverse.

I hate the idea of playing a cover, whether I'm being paid or not, but I understand why other people do it, of course I do! So I don't go about spouting "my way is best!" I see less of that constraint coming from the other side though... YMMV

[fraublugher]

Originally Posted by pmchenry

I haven't seen the same in reverse.

Quoted for selective dyslexia


this is an old arguement done to death here for years , it is certainly not one sided.

But then , all of Bluewine's extra posts may make it seem that way .

[jive1]

Wow, another thread that morphs into a covers vs originals argument. How novel......

Anyway, band vs business is not necessarily covers vs originals. You can be in an original band that totally sells out for commercial viability and be in a cover band that is just for fun with little commercial viability. There are some covers that I would love to play, but probably wouldn't get me booked for enough dough that my old lady won't get pissed off at me. For example, I'd love to play 80s thrash like Anthrax, Megadeth, Exodus, Diamondhead, Misfits, etc. but there's not much market here for that so I'd probably be playing multi-band shows like other original Metal acts for a pittance if I went that route. But if the opportunity presented itself and wasn't too inconvenient, I'd love a chance to play "Caught in a Mosh".

And there are probably some original acts where the music is not much different than the cover tunes that some hate to play. I've played cover tunes and original tunes that used I-IV-V and I-V-vi-IV as the chord progression. I've heard covers that were more original than originals. I don't think Jaco was thinking he'd make more money by doing a cover of Donna Lee. But, I do think that Steve Howe, John Wetton and Carl Palmer were trying to make money when they formed Asia and wrote songs such as 'Heat of the Moment' and 'Don't Cry'.

[Clef_de_fa]

I understand the feeling of the OP. It seems that if you don't play in a cover band for the money you are off and a stupid person that need to learn the hard way until you hit a certain age where you have to stop being creative and play only cover because dude you are old.

Also for some people it seems that they can't do something for fun, if they can't make some money out of it, why doin't it ? Sound like a boring life when the only encitive for doing something is money. Maybe I get it wrong be this is what I percieve.

[Bert Slide]

Originally Posted by jive1

Wow, another thread that morphs into a covers vs originals argument. How novel......

Anyway, band vs business is not necessarily covers vs originals. You can be in an original band that totally sells out for commercial viability and be in a cover band that is just for fun with little commercial viability. .

Just to be clear here if I wasn't in the OP: This is not about covers vs. originals. This is about everyone having their own reasons for playing music in a band and not dissing on others whose motivations and aspirations don't match your own. I am not currently in an originals band but rather the second type you mention above: a (mostly) covers band that is for fun playing only what we want that has a little commercial viability as well.

[Bert Slide]

Originally Posted by fraublugher

This is so KEY!

There's so many great tunes in the world , why sully your set with mediocrity, or waste time trying to make bad sound good .
Oh , I'm sorry , I think it was Blue's turn to post.

j/k bluewine , I think it's good that you're making the effort to teach and impart on the newer guys , but for those of us with grey hair, it's sometime 's akin to water-boarding.

Please carry on

Exactly, I haven't been on this site very long but I'm over the lectures on how you have to play "Mustang Sally" or whatever to to be successful from people making $300 a weekend. I make that much too, play nothing I don't like and wouldn't cross the street to spit on ole Sally.

I enjoy the advice from guys like Jive who seem to be quite knowledgeable and obviously have been around the block a few times. I get annoyed by the unsolicited comments by some who try to come off as experts when they are obviously just weekend warrior hacks, not that there is anything wrong with being a weekend warrior hack, I am one myself.