Do smaller local bands generally have sound guys?

[Kmonk]

It varies from venue to venue. In the early 1980s many bands in my area provided their own PA and sound engineer. Today, some clubs will provide both, some will provide a PA but the band has to use their own sound guy. Some clubs won't provide anything at all.

[mellowinman]

And I'd like to remind everyone that if you can keep your volume down, you will NEVER have feedback. NEVER! No feedback from mains; no feedback from monitors. If you are having feedback you are too loud. We play PLENTY loud to be real rock and roll, but we are probably 3/4 volume of virtually every band in this town. Our bass and kick drum still can be felt in your chest, but you don't have to scream at each other to talk. Start with a low stage volume, where the only thing you hear coming through monitors is vocals, acoustic guitar and maybe keyboard or harp; keep the guitar amp down and the bass rigs down, and either get a drummer who can play to the room, or put him behind a drum shield, (keeps drums out of effects-laden vocal mics, by the way,) and you will never get feedback from the monitors.

And why should you get feedback from the mains? You should get VERY good with eq, not just to control feedback, but so your band sounds great, and since you don't have any mics pointed at your mains, you sure do have to have those up loud to generate feedback at all!

This is 2013, not 1973. No audience should ever have to hear feedback, or have their ears damaged from bands/soundmen who just plain don't have a clue about sound.

[Balog]

Originally Posted by mellowinman

If you're really good, you deserve more money than anyone here is going to pay you, and if you're not, you shouldn't be doing it at all.

I just disagree with this on so many levels. Firstly on the "no worth it" part: I won't bore you with our economic situation but more money is always worthwhile. Not like I'm subbing out to a ten cent an hour sweat shop or something. As to the talent aspect, I freely admit I'm not as good as a professional and professionally schooled engineer who does it full time. The people I'd be running sound for wouldn't exactly be Eric Clapton or Jaco either. So what?

Originally Posted by two fingers

Are you close enough to Seattle to do work there? If so, I would think you should be able to hook up pretty easily. If you are trying to stay in your small market, it will probably be harder. Everyone is cutting back. The music business is no different. So if any act can get away without a sound guy, they will. Even if that means letting a guitar player who knows virtually nothing about PS run sound from the stage.

I work in downtown Seattle so I've no problem doing shows there. But I never really goto bars or clubs, and when I see shows it seems awkward to approach the sound guys and say "Hey, I'd like to take your job. Think you could help me out with that?"

Originally Posted by Ubersheist

Churches... they always seem to produce the best musicians. I think the same goes for sound guys, especially for the bigger churches.

It's not that you're looking in the wrong place, it's more that you're not looking in enough different places. Here's my take, as someone who briefly worked for both a side business sound company and even more briefly worked for a large, highly professional sound company.

Venues that staff sound guys are common, but tougher to get into. I'd start looking at sound reinforcement companies. Often, venues that have PAs and that also are big enough need a sound guy will negotiate with the band as to who will engineer sound. Usually, it's someone that the band provides, and the venue may have stipulations like he has to have be certified, have a tech school degree in sound engineering, or something.

However, some contracts have the venues provide the sound guy. They usually get a local guy with a side business to run sound. The next time you're at a show, a festival or somewhere, talk briefly with the sound guys and see if they're with the band or are hired out by the venue. Hand 'em your card, and toss up a quick resume-style website that indicates your abilities and history. Anyone who runs sound even as a side business will know that running church sound has value.

I may suggest also looking into bigger pro companies. Most companies have their engineers travel all the time, and will require certifications or that you be a union member. However, there's some that have local contracts with smaller venues that don't need certified guys. You may be able to get in with them.

I'd also aim as high as you can get away with. Massive concert PA systems at 30,000 seaters need a bunch of people to run 'em. On any given concert at a big stadium, I'd guess that at least 1/2 have less experience then you do, probably have only a high school diploma, and may have spent some time in prison at some point.

Above all, I've noticed that this side of the music business, like many others, is based off of contacts. Both bands and venues use the same sound guys over and over because they trust them. Like most businesses, they usually have a pretty small pool of people they choose from. As such, it's always good to get known in those circles as much as possible. You may need to offer yourself as an intern for a few months, just to get that on your resume and/or get your foot in the door. You may need to offer your services a few times to a friend's band. If you have gigs where someone's running sound, chat them up! Best of luck!

This is all very useful and encouraging information, I really appreciate it.

Originally Posted by mellowinman

And I'd like to remind everyone that if you can keep your volume down, you will NEVER have feedback. NEVER! No feedback from mains; no feedback from monitors. If you are having feedback you are too loud. We play PLENTY loud to be real rock and roll, but we are probably 3/4 volume of virtually every band in this town. Our bass and kick drum still can be felt in your chest, but you don't have to scream at each other to talk. Start with a low stage volume, where the only thing you hear coming through monitors is vocals, acoustic guitar and maybe keyboard or harp; keep the guitar amp down and the bass rigs down, and either get a drummer who can play to the room, or put him behind a drum shield, (keeps drums out of effects-laden vocal mics, by the way,) and you will never get feedback from the monitors.

And why should you get feedback from the mains? You should get VERY good with eq, not just to control feedback, but so your band sounds great, and since you don't have any mics pointed at your mains, you sure do have to have those up loud to generate feedback at all!

This is 2013, not 1973. No audience should ever have to hear feedback, or have their ears damaged from bands/soundmen who just plain don't have a clue about sound.

If you have such obvious disdain for sound engineers why are you posting on this thread? Just a way of skirting the "don't bash sound guys" policy you mentioned finding so onerous earlier?

Singers who hand hold mics and let their hands drop when another singer is soloing (pointing their mic directly at the wedge). Speakers with headset wireless rigs who like to walk in front of the line array. Trying to mic a soft playing mandolin player who the worship leader insists on placing next to his heavy handed fill in drummer with the enormous kit. A djembe player who's deaf in one ear and insists on having her monitor cranked to 11 with a wedge pointed at the mic on the head skin. Players showing up after the set has already started, leaving you to try to set their gain on the fly (bonus points if it's the mando player next to the guy who wants to be a metal drummer).

You do what you can to mitigate this (ring out the monitors, mic placement etc) and I literally don't remember the last time I had feedback during the performance. But it's really not just a matter of turning down 9although that certainly is a huge help).

[Marko5657]

Originally Posted by Balog

Yeah, even though I could get a good deal on used gear from a buddy the investment needed to get a decent PA would take too long to recoup.

This, plus a few other things you said tells me that you’re pretty unrealistic as to what it takes to do what you want to do.

You may have some knowledge/experience mixing, but you don’t seem to know much about the industry.

Be prepared to either invest some money, or roadie for a quite a while before getting behind that desk.

And your attitude towards mellowinman was uncalled for, besides which many of the things you pointed out didn’t even contradict what he said about volume.

It might be helpful to also go to a sound forum and ask for additional advice.

[tekdiver500ft]

I own a local sound company, and we provide sound for a dozen local bands. We also are dedicated at three local venues, so I've seen it from both sides. We provide full FOH support and monitors (PreSonus 24.4.2, Alto amps, subs, and mains, Shure IEM radios, Westone UM3X earbuds - everyone provides their own tips - and JBL passive wedges for those who prefer to use wedges). Even with all that, we only get one share from the bands. The real money is getting a dedicated venue. We are guaranteed a certain level of pay, and every band is guaranteed the sound they want at the volume the venue wants. We sold it to the venues by showing excellent sound, a willingness to live with whatever restrictions they had, and by suggesting that they share our fee with the bands (that is, they took a little from what they pay the bands, and added a little additional from their own pocket).

So no, it is not unrealistic to suggest that you can work with local bands. I'd start by finding a band that a friend is in, and asking them to let you run their sound. As they find out just how much better life is with a good engineer, they will spread the word for you.

[ChrisB2]

Originally Posted by mellowinman

keep the guitar amp down

LOLOL

If only.......

[Factor88]

As others have pointed out, when a band is making 400-500 per night for a 4 piece (which is pretty typical for an average local cover band) adding a GOOD soundman who will command at least an equal split just isn’t financially viable, unless that band’s ambition is greater than working 2-3 nights per week locally for that kind of scratch. In that case, you may be able to find a band that is willing to make less money because they see a good sound man as an investment towards obtaining bigger things.
My last band I was in with a dedicated soundman every night was back in 1992. At that point the band I was in decided to stop paying a soundman, run sound from stage, and pocket the extra money. Three bands later and none have had a sound man (except when we’ve played gigs where one was provided, like Disney World or festivals etc.). Except for the band I am in currently, these were not garden variety weekend warrior bands either. So the notion that you “need” a good soundmand in order to be a successful working coverband? No way. However, again, if a band’s ambitions are more than that, and probably this applies to the originals scene more, you might find a band willing to work with you.

[SteveHeissner]

We're in the $400-700 a night range and have a sound man. It only works because he's willing to charge us $200 or less per gig. He does a great job and without him we'd sound like crap. However, we couldn't afford most sound men.

[MrLenny1]

Nope. Our trio averaged $360 a night.
After expenses we were lucky to take home $100.
Our sound man was who ever had the longest guitar cord.

[Balog]

In the spirit of not feeding the trolls, I'll be ignoring the unhelpful, bashing type posts. Thanks to everyone else for all the good input!

Originally Posted by SteveHeissner

We're in the $400-700 a night range and have a sound man. It only works because he's willing to charge us $200 or less per gig. He does a great job and without him we'd sound like crap. However, we couldn't afford most sound men.

Does he provide the PA for that much?

[3mrhythm]

most of the clubs we play in have their own sound guy and will not let someone from outside the club mess with the gear..