Drummer not playing fair

onecoolone · #1 10-22-2008, 12:25 PM

I've been playing with the guitar players for 5+ years. We got a new drummer almost a year ago, and have been gigging about once a month. The drummer has problems with my sound levels. When we try to balance our sound before the gig or at practice, he will play very softly. At our last gig, I walked by the sound booth and "caught" him telling the sound guy that I play too loud, and to keep my levels down. Well, the CD from the show has way too little bass in the first 4 or 5 songs. About half way through, I turned up, and the last 5 songs are fine.

I've been stewing about this for a while, and I really don't understand his adversion to my levels. He also says I play too many notes (I do a lot of walking). He says it's just his opinion, but then he becomes proactive with the sound guy and his soft playing in sound check. The guitar players are too timid to make a stand.

deathbyjune · #2 10-22-2008, 12:31 PM

Is there a way to give the drummer less bass onstage, but maintain sufficient bass guitar volume FOH and to the rest of the band?

Goatman · #3 10-22-2008, 12:38 PM

maybe you guys ought to make more songs with odd time signatures, that's always frustrated drummers in my experience

In all seriousness though, I don't think that your band should tolerate ANY behind-the-back moves by its members. Get your guitarists on board with ya - if he's doing this to you now, it's only a matter of time before he starts micro-managing them too.

lethargytartare · #4 10-22-2008, 12:40 PM

Band talk time. If he can't deal with you directly about band issues like the overall sound and tone, then you should dump him. Nobody in the band should be sneaking around to make changes without the involvement of the other members.

And the sound guy shouldn't be listening to someone in the band say someone else in the band is too loud (monitor mixes aside) -- they should be mixing for the room.

palm grease · #5 10-22-2008, 12:51 PM

maybe the drummer is right?.... I've never known a sound guy to take one members advice about another player... maybe you are too loud... maybe there are too many notes?

I find that if there's conviction, there must be some truth to it. If your drummer is so inclined as to go behind your back and arrange YOUR levels with the sound guy then he must be passionate about it.... so.... why?

Im guessing there are no recordings of your practices? maybe the other band members aren't willing to take a stand because they agree with the drummer???

I 2nd a band talk!...and FWIW where there's smoke there's fire bro!

sorry for the tough love dude!

smogg · #6 10-22-2008, 12:58 PM

..........or maybe your drummer just sucks and can't keep up with bass lines that involve more than just root notes.........

DudeistMonk · #7 10-22-2008, 12:59 PM

yeah man you got any recordings? I'm sure TB will offer you constructive criticism (or prove your right) and give you the ammo you need to deal with the drummer.

EggyToast · #8 10-22-2008, 01:04 PM

Some people don't "get" bass. I did some drum sampling tracks for a friend of mine; he was putting together a singer/songwriter CD that started as just him w/ guitar. I give him "flat" tracks, telling him he'll have to do some mastering or compression to get it set up with his guitar, after he records himself.

I don't hear from him about the drums for a while, until I get the CD. He slaughtered the bass -- put a HPF on it and elminated like half the spectrum. I asked why he eliminated all the bass on the drums -- he said "there was way too much, I just fixed it."

Yeah, no -- he killed it off entirely. I compared it using headphones, my studio monitors, and the only thing I can think of is that he was playing around with it through his subwoofer or some ****. I've washed my hands of it by now, but it still pissed me off.

I was reminded of it when he wanted to jam a bit -- I had my upright bass set up, he with an acoustic guitar. I told him "well, you know, a lot of the time, guitarists recording with bass will drop the lowest note, letting the bass player fill in the root. Makes it sound more balanced." He told me it was dumb and he's never heard of it before. I've since lost any interest in playing music with the dude, because I figure that even if we could agree on something, he would fight me tooth & nail to remove the bass -- probably pulling something like "you play bass, of course you're putting too much emphasis on it."

So it may be that you're biased, but it's more likely that your drummer is trying to be THE rhythm for the band, drowning you out. Probably doesn't normally listen to music with actual bass notes.

aceshigh · #9 10-22-2008, 01:04 PM

In all due fairness, how do you know you're really not way too loud? Did you ask people in the audience if you're too loud or not loud enough? People have different comfort levels. The volume of your instrument may sound good for you but may be too loud for the others. Remember that those that are further aways from the bass amp always hear the bass louder than the bass player that is closer to the amp.

In my case, my drummer always seem to ask me to RAISE the volume of my bass. I'm always asked to raise my volume. The drummer often comes and moves my amp, pointing it in his direction.

About playing too many notes, I've had the same complaint from a drummer a while back. At the time I got pi$$ed off and argued with him. Now, listening to the tapes, I realized the guy was right. I was way too busy for that style. Is the style you are playing compatible with the walking bass you are doing? Is this how the original bass line supposed to be? A walking bass line that will sound cool on a Miles Davis tune will probably suck on a Cold Play song.

Talk to the guy. Maybe he has some constructive points to offer you. If he is just being a jerk, chances are your styles are way too different. If you think you cannot live with his ideas and cannot work with him peacefully, maybe you guys belong in different bands.

Just my 2c

Montsegour · #10 10-22-2008, 01:08 PM

Fight? =)

sears · #11 10-22-2008, 01:10 PM

When he plays softer at sound check can't you play softer too?

**Stumbo** · #12 10-22-2008, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onecoolone

When we try to balance our sound before the gig or at practice, he will play very softly.

At our last gig, I walked by the sound booth and "caught" him telling the sound guy that I play too loud, and to keep my levels down.

Well, the CD from the show has way too little bass in the first 4 or 5 songs.

About half way through, I turned up, and the last 5 songs are fine.

.... I really don't understand his adversion to my levels.

He also says I play too many notes (I do a lot of walking).

...but then he becomes proactive with the sound guy and his soft playing in sound check.

The guitar players are too timid to make a stand.

These would be great questions for a band meeting.

Preface each question with "why".

Don't stew about it, become proactive yourself.

Also, record your rehearsals first to have something to refer to instead of just everyone's "opinions".

pedro · #13 10-22-2008, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onecoolone

I've been playing with the guitar players for 5+ years. We got a new drummer almost a year ago, and have been gigging about once a month. The drummer has problems with my sound levels. When we try to balance our sound before the gig or at practice, he will play very softly. At our last gig, I walked by the sound booth and "caught" him telling the sound guy that I play too loud, and to keep my levels down. Well, the CD from the show has way too little bass in the first 4 or 5 songs. About half way through, I turned up, and the last 5 songs are fine.

I've been stewing about this for a while, and I really don't understand his adversion to my levels. He also says I play too many notes (I do a lot of walking). He says it's just his opinion, but then he becomes proactive with the sound guy and his soft playing in sound check. The guitar players are too timid to make a stand.

Some thought/quesions

1. You said that the CD proved that there was not enough bass until you turned up. I'm curious if the other band members, including the drummer agree with you on this?

2. I've never had a chance to go thru a PA so forgive me if this is a dumb question but isn't your volume out front determined by the sound guy? And if so, then how did you manage to turn up?

3. How was the CD recorded? By microphone or direct off the board?

FWIW, whether he's wrong or right about your volume, I'd be a little miffed too that he's going behind your back.

kraigo · #14 10-22-2008, 01:24 PM

Wear earplugs. The cut out the cymbals and guitars more than they cut down the bass. You'll be able to hear yourself better without turning up.

Get used to just barely being able to hear yourself. That's the way it goes most of the time.

KO

palm grease · #15 10-22-2008, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kraigo

Get used to just barely being able to hear yourself. That's the way it goes most of the time.

KO

couldn't disagree more!

99% of the time it isnt a volume issue... its an EQ issue!

why not tell us what the set up is.... whats your rig? guitar rigs? what kind of stuff are ya playin?

scottbass · #16 10-22-2008, 01:41 PM

I assume the sound guy was provided by (i.e. paid by) the venue. If so, he's not a very good sound guy if he lets individual band members tell him how to mix.

Your particular experience that evening has 2 distinct possibilities:

(1) Drummer is wrong. You are right. Sound guy mixed bass too low because he is not good at his job and took the drummer's suggestion.

(2) Drummer is right. You are wrong. Sound guy mixed bass lower than you wanted because he is good at his job. Sound guy would have mixed the same regardless of what drummer told him.

Drummer is definitely out of line trying to unilaterally tell sound guy how to do his job. Drummer may or may not be intentionally trying to "sandbag" level settings by playing quieter during sound check. You may or may not be correct in your assessment of the need for more bass.

Your biggest problem, IMHO, is you all need some more band communication to keep this from happening on a regular basis.

XtromatriX · #17 10-22-2008, 01:54 PM

Hmmmmm? Seems that if the drummer had a problem with your levels he should have talked directly with you so you both could work out together what was best for the music. Usually the sound man knows what he's doing and surely doesn't need advice from one musician regarding the levels of anoher.

**john turner** · #18 10-22-2008, 02:00 PM

you are -entitled- to your own vision of your instrument. too many folks - often guitarists, and sometimes drummers too - have their own musical vision wrapped up in, not only what they are doing, but what the other folks are doing too.

in other words, they envision themselves solo rockstars. this guy's vision of himself includes a bassist that follows what he thinks a bassist should do, and he's trying to force you into that mould.

have a band talk, see where everyone else stands, and then decide what you want to do about it. but don't let anyone, especially not some drummer, hamstring your vision for what you want to do because it's hamstringing his vision of what he wants you to do. and don't let anyone browbeat you into changing your sound or approach.

i've been in bands with folks who wanted control purely for control's sake. these kinds of people have deeper rooted problems than merely being heard in the mix, and if this is the case with this drummer, i'd advise firing him.

whether this drummer is right or wrong in his assessment of the facts, he's going about this in a manipulative, duplicitous manner. he's treating you like you're stupid, or don't know your own instrument. i would not work with him, or even talk to him.

Akami · #19 10-22-2008, 02:07 PM

I was going over to a friends place every week when they had band practice and eventually lost all interest due to the fact that nothing could be heard over the drums, and if anything got loud enough to be heard, the drummers (yeah, they tried it with 2 of them) played even louder yet.

My friend would sometimes fake like he was playing a solo and really rocking out, while having the volume pedal completely off and the main drummer would say something like "man, that solo was great!".

It might not be too much to assume you may have a near relative of one of these guys for a drummer.

onecoolone · #20 10-22-2008, 02:29 PM

So many good responses. Thanks. We're all having a meeting tonight where we'll listen to the CD and hopefully make progress.

To answer a few questions:

Sometimes I am too loud. When everyone seems to be frowning at you, instead of smiling, you are too loud (or suck, or just farted).

Quote:

Some thought/quesions

1. You said that the CD proved that there was not enough bass until you turned up. I'm curious if the other band members, including the drummer agree with you on this?

2. I've never had a chance to go thru a PA so forgive me if this is a dumb question but isn't your volume out front determined by the sound guy? And if so, then how did you manage to turn up?

3. How was the CD recorded? By microphone or direct off the board?

Both guitar players agreed that the bass was lacking on the CD. I had a DI out to the board, but I was also playing through my stack. When I eventually turned up, I did so with right hand nob. CD was recorded off the board.

I have another question: when practicing, we set up as we would on stage, with all speakers facing away from the drummer. I know he can hear me just fine, but I often think he has trouble hearing the guitar players. We use no monitors in practice. Should we point the guitar cabs at the drummer?

My Rig: '72 P Bass, GK 410SBX + 115SBX, GK 1001RB