Drummer Refuses to Buckle Down

chaosMK · #1 11-21-2006, 10:50 AM

My band has a great drummer. He has a cool emotional style of playing and is a great guy. He's a few years older than the rest of us, but is a fairly new drummer. He is basically self taught and learned by jamming for hours with the guitarist.

The guitarist and I have been musicians for 10+ years. We know about stuff like the importance of technique and how to practice to improve fine points in our playing. We also practice a lot on our own.

When I joined the band a little more than a year ago, we started writing more technical music that calls for more precision and consistent drum parts (as opposed to "jam" style drumming). It's been a huge upward climb with our drummer, basically because he doesnt have the technical background we do or know how to practice, aside from jamming for hours with someone.

We have been working on a new album and spent a lot of time laying down click tracks with guitars and bass for him to work with two months before he went in (two months so he could get used to working with a metronome). He barely practiced with them and when he went into the studio his drum parts came out weak. A lot of the drums sound like they werent played with much confidence, are barely in time with the click, and came out sounding like he only knows about two beats- one with a tom fill and another that goes "splash... splash."

With that said, we are always trying to encourage him to learn basic rudiments or spend time practicing fundamental aspects of playing. We tried to encourage him to take a few lessons, just so he could have a starting point, but he never went through with it. Our last big argument was over the rudiment and "try practicing technique" thing- he just gave us excuses.

I've spent up to hours a week the last year working with just him to teach him about odd time signatures, how to play rhythms on double bass, and stuff like that. Even then, after spending tons of my own time, he wont work on the stuff on his own and ends up forgetting it.

There are all these basic skills we want him to learn, which would take a lot of hard work and practice on his own time, but he refuses to buckle down and put his own time and effort into it.

We are stuck with a sloppy drummer who has basically reached a plateau. We havent written new music in 6 months because it requires the types of precise drum parts he isnt able to do at his skill level.

What would you guys do in this situation? Firing him isnt an option. All apologies for the epic rant.

**Rune Bivrin** · #2 11-21-2006, 11:12 AM

Why isn't firing him an option? Does he own your gear, or is he your father?

You and the guitar player could quit, of course, but then you'd lose the band name, I suppose.

Other than that, I can't think of anything but to sit on him until he buckles. Or offer obscene amounts of money.

Rune

chaosMK · #3 11-21-2006, 11:19 AM

There are a few reasons- the first is that we all want him to be our drummer. He has a style that we all like, in spite of the technical limitations. Also, we are all roomates and it's his lease. Last but not least, in this city it would be pretty hard to find a replacement, especially with the amount of availability we'd like.

lonote · #4 11-21-2006, 11:22 AM

You appear to have 2, and only 2, options: live with it or fire him. I think you know which one you'll eventually be forced to take, sooner or later.

**Rune Bivrin** · #5 11-21-2006, 11:32 AM

Then the answer is really quite simple: You buckle down! You're just gonna have to come up with songs that - while endlessly complex - work with simple drumming.

It's a classic no-win situation. Any pressure you put on this guy will likely just put him off more and make him less inclined to practice and develop. Your best bet is to work with positive feedback. Let him know when he does something you like, and point out - even when it isn't particularly true - and praise his' improvements. That way he might find it worthwile to try to improve further.

It isn't so far removed from how you work with dogs and children really.

Rune

Spoiled Grape · #6 11-21-2006, 11:41 AM

If you are that serious about writing the type of music you want to write, than you need to fire him and find another drummer. No excuses.

If you don't mind simplifying your music, than do that. Alot of good music has spawned because overzealous writers have been tied down and kept simple by drummers who can barely hold a beat (coughringocough.)

QORC · #7 11-21-2006, 12:00 PM

well, pretty simple. He is what he is. Love him or Dump him.

chaosMK · #8 11-21-2006, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rune Bivrin

It's a classic no-win situation. Any pressure you put on this guy will likely just put him off more and make him less inclined to practice and develop. Your best bet is to work with positive feedback.

Good point and I think you are right. It is a tough balance because we've tried both methods- negative reinforcement has negative results. However, when we've used positive reinforcement, he looses motivation. I guess I can do more work in this area, and figure something out.

If I can get this guy on track, I might as well become a manager. An amazing one.

Folmeister · #9 11-21-2006, 02:06 PM

Keep him for live work, but hire a pro to cut the studio tracks. That will give you enough time to keep working with him.

Vegiehead · #10 11-22-2006, 08:37 PM

i agree with that one

Munjibunga · #11 11-22-2006, 09:45 PM

Yeah, we had a drummer for seven years who couldn't count rhythms. He was a good drummer, but when we'd tell him, "The kick drum should be and one, not one and," he'd just sit there with a blank look on his face until we said, "bump BUMP, not BUMP bump."

Crazyeelboy · #12 11-23-2006, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaosMK

There are a few reasons- the first is that we all want him to be our drummer. He has a style that we all like, in spite of the technical limitations. Also, we are all roomates and it's his lease. Last but not least, in this city it would be pretty hard to find a replacement, especially with the amount of availability we'd like.

Step One - move out and get your own place.

Step Two - tell him that you want to keep him with the band, but that he isn't cutting it and that you will have to get someone else for some of the complicated stuff. This will either motivate him to get up to speed or to quit. Either way, your problem is solved, but you gotta get out of his house first.

Lord Henry · #13 11-23-2006, 06:26 AM

Ultimately you have to ask "what is the band about?" If the main focus is that you're all mates who love playing music together then that's cool but it does mean that you pretty much need to over look the drummers failings, just like you would with a friend's awful dress sense.

If, on the other hand, your main focus is on writing and creating music that you love, and the drummer has become a limiting factor on that, then you really do need to tell him to shape up or ship out. Not firing him now won't mean much when the band breaks up acromoniously this time next year.

That said, finding a new place to live first might be a good idea.

Hope you get this sorted and just remember: drummers are rare, but not that rare.

Cheers

SBassman · #14 11-23-2006, 06:45 AM

Is this *for fun*, or do you guys have any thoughts about seriously breaking into professional work?

If it's the former, tailor the material to what he does well. If the latter, start looking for a new apartment.

davidmurphy · #15 11-23-2006, 08:51 PM

I recently had a conversation with our drummer about getting more consistancy in what he was playing.
He likes to get the feel of a song & play spontaneously but I suggested that he needed to come up with solid parts for every section of every song.
I have no problem with him improvising during a song but I feel that you should have a solid base from which to improvise.

A huge benefit of having parts figured out (apart from the song sounding tighter) is that on the days when your head is just not in the right place (happens to all of us) you still know what you're supposed to be doing.
Even if you can't get the feel right, you can play technically correct & just work through the rehearsal/gig.

If you don't have definite parts figured out & you're not in the mood, it'll all fall apart.

Explain to your drummer that you're not trying to restrict him but that having his homework done will give him, and everyone else in the band, more confidence about playing the songs.

Recordings are a sure way of showing up lots of problems in your songs that you never knew were there. Not having your parts ready is just asking for trouble.

Bassic83 · #16 11-23-2006, 09:16 PM

Drummer with tempo issues? Not playing with the click? Tell him "TIME is NOT a magazine!"

badstonebass · #17 11-27-2006, 11:01 AM

Here are a few of my personal experiences...

If a drummer has learned by playing covers many times they cannot play without that frame of reference. Even some great players I have known just cannot cut it on original stuff. You MAY have to completely show him what to play. he might not be able to grasp it. I have known plenty of cover band guys that fall in this category. Soooo...if that is the case the drum parts may need to be basically written before he will be able to play your music. If you want to dictate what he plays.....you have to have it DOWN ON "TAPE" for him to hear. Just telling him won't cut it.

Second click tracks suck IMO. If you have any experience in recording you know that many guys cannot come into a studio and play to music recorded with a click. MANY FAMOUS musicians cannot do it and are "replaced". At one time during the hair metal heyday ONE DRUMMER played on 90% of the recordings made by bands of that era. Try recording the drum tracks LIVE in the studio with the band. then do your overdubs. You may find that what he does sounds much better. When I record bands I refuse to use the "click" method. It is suprising how much more REAL and better it sounds.

Third, you must decide wether it is a BAND or not. Is he playing BADLY or is he just not playing what you hear in your head? When writing in a band situation you must be ready to compromise. If you are not able to do that.....again you must have a CONCRETE idea of what you want.....not just what you DON'T want. Otherwise how can he know? Maybe he just can't hear your music.

You may be right and he isn't cutting it.....but I find that usually there are 2 sides. Look into these issues and find out if maybe YOU are part of the problem.

nad · #18 11-27-2006, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaosMK

Also, we are all roomates and it's his lease.

D'OH! Time to find a new place to live?

If anything I've learned about being in bands over the years, being no more than casual acquaintances with bandmates is an absolute must. Being good friends, or especially living with them, just brings about way too many problems in the long run.

Dkerwood · #19 11-28-2006, 08:47 AM

I've worked with drummers from every skill level. I've worked with guys who play professionally but didn't fit into the band well. I've worked with guys who barely play. One of my favorite drummers and best friend in the world is AMAZING, but he didn't want to drum for anything more than a hobby - solid gigs were too much of a commitment for him, and rehearsals were out of the question. Needless to say, we don't play together anymore.

Our current drummer hadn't touched the drums in twenty years before he came to play with us. Luckily, we're blessed in that he's driven and dedicated to improving his playing. We ALSO play all the time, which helps a lot.

How often do you guys play together? I was in a band in college - we all lived in the same dorm right across the parking lot from the music building. We'd get together sometimes 5 nights a week and play for two or three hours. When we started, the drummer was sloppy, the bassist had just bought his first axe, the rhythm guitarist had rhythm issues (lol), and I'm sure that I probably wasn't as polished as I thought I was... After a semester or two of that practice schedule, however, we were VERY tight (I occasionally go back to a couple videos and recordings that we got to confirm this - just to make sure it wasn't my faulty memory).

None of our jams were "rehearsals", per se. None of them set out to be songwriting sessions. But the music evolved over hundreds of hours of playing together, and it got everyone farther than any of us thought possible.

If finding a new guy isn't an option, and he won't/can't practice on his own, my suggestion would be to play with him as often as you want him to practice. Orient your "jams" so that he's forced to work on whatever rudiment or concept you want - 5/4 jams are great for this.

justabass · #20 11-28-2006, 08:58 AM

show him this thread....