Economics of an originals band

[Bassist4Eris]

Originally Posted by ShoeManiac

A good thing to consider with your CD? First, realize that the CD format is dying.

Also? Consider working with CD Baby for distribution. You'd be surprised at the number of artists who are selling their CD's through that site. Additionally, CD Baby has a deal for getting your music offered digitally through the iTunes store. THIS IS HUGE. Look into this.

And while I'm at it, what are some good original rooms in Albany? We hit Boston, Vermont, Maine, NYC & Philly already, and we'd definitely like to know what the good original music rooms are in Albany from someone with that local perspective.

Regarding the CD format, I wish I could make my bandmates understand that. I really think going all-download is a good way to control costs. But it is nice to be able to hand somebody something tangible. Download card, maybe? My guitar player wants to press vinyl

CDBaby is a good idea. I'll check into that too.

For originals in Albany, I'd say Red Square and Valentines are the two main spots. Red Square does a lot of fusiony jam stuff (we've opened for both Skerik and Club D'elf there, and I've seen Charlie Hunter there too) but they host all kinds of bands. Valentines is more indie rock and americana, with some metal shows too.

[ShoeManiac]

Originally Posted by Bassist4Eris

Regarding the CD format, I wish I could make my bandmates understand that. I really think going all-download is a good way to control costs. But it is nice to be able to hand somebody something tangible. Download card, maybe? My guitar player wants to press vinyl

CDBaby is a good idea. I'll check into that too.

For originals in Albany, I'd say Red Square and Valentines are the two main spots. Red Square does a lot of fusiony jam stuff (we've opened for both Skerik and Club D'elf there, and I've seen Charlie Hunter there too) but they host all kinds of bands. Valentines is more indie rock and americana, with some metal shows too.

The key thing with CD's? Don't try to break the bank with your potential buyers. Keep them cheap! $5 - $10 max! You don't want to dissuade your potential listeners from getting your music because it's too expensive. And a CD pressing is still pretty cheap if you don't go crazy on your packaging.

Vinyl? It's definitely having a rennaissance, but you have to be careful in terms of costs. Artists who sell a decent number of albums / CD's can afford to get into the niche market of vinyl. And for them it can be very lucrative since people who buy vinyl are willing to spend more. But when you're trying to build that relationship with your audience, a vinyl pressing is overly optimistic. From the standpoint of an artist, I would only pursue a vinyl pressing if it also included a download card for mp3's of the album AND we knew that we could easily make our money back in album sales. And from the standpoint of a listener, I would only buy vinyl from artists that I know and love. I don't buy vinyl from new artists that I'm checking out for the first time.

Thanks for the tips on the Albany venues, too. We looked at Red Square, but weren't able to make anything happen. And if your band is looking to get a little bit out of town, check out Northhampton in Massachusetts. We played there and the town had a great vibe.

[Stewie26]

To quote Bassit4Eris "My guitar player wants to press vinyl."

Sorry to the OP for side tracking his tread but very curious. How many people these days have turntables to play vinyl. I know it is big with the audiophiles, but does the average Joe have a turntable? One of my friends has just released a market test single with Black Sabbath drummer Vinny Appie and he told me that they are going for downloads and pressing vinyl only. I was thinking to myself. "Vinyl"?? Maybe I am missing something here when it comes to vinyl in lieu of CD's.

BTW: If interested in hearing song here is a link to my friend's video. Pretty good song imo
http://www.blabbermouth.net/news.asp...sitemID=182158

[Bassist4Eris]

Originally Posted by Stewie26

Sorry to the OP for side tracking his tread but curious. How many people these days have turntables to play vynal. I know it is big with the audiophiles, but does the average Joe have a turn table? One of my friends has justed released a market test single with Black Sabbath drummer Vinny Appie and he told me that they are going for downloads and pressing vynal only. I was thinking to myself. "Vynal"?? Maybe I am missing something here when it comes to vynal in lieu of CD's.

Vinyl has apparently become trendy amongst 20-something hipsters. Of course, that's probably just a fad. Guitarist says he put a feeler out on our Facebook page, and got a lot of positive responses to the idea of releasing a vinyl record. We were going to include download cards too. But when we looked at the costs, it just wasn't worth it.

I personally still have a turntable, but that's so I can play all my old records. I rarely buy a new release on vinyl. A local band I like put out a 7" recently, and I bought that because that's just cool. Reminds me of my youth.

[RonniePudding]

"First, realize that the CD format is dying. That's just a fact of the business. But, it's a good medium for selling your music at your gigs."

-- true 'nuff -- cloud-based distribution methods will soon replace that annoying plastic disk that gets scratched easily ... but for the time being, until paper money becomes obsolete, having something tangible for people to buy at a show with their leftover beer money is a good way to get your music out there. My original point was, for the sizes of audieces I've played for around here in places like Valentines and Red Square, CDs have been a promotion tool rather than a profit center. Not that we pushed to sell lots of CDs... as always, your milage may vary.

Regarding venues, don't forget McGeary's. Lark Tavern used to be a great place to play back in the day, but it burned down and the owner now manages McGeary's. Unless things have changed drastically in the past couple of years, she is musician-friendly.

[RonniePudding]

Originally Posted by ShoeManiac

...if your band is looking to get a little bit out of town, check out Northhampton in Massachusetts. We played there and the town had a great vibe.

+1

Never performed there myself, but I've been to a few shows in NoHo. There are lots of venues. More importantly, there are a bunch of colleges within a few miles of downtown = big prospective audience.

[Big Brother]

Originally Posted by Stewie26

To quote Bassit4Eris "My guitar player wants to press vinyl."

Sorry to the OP for side tracking his tread but very curious. How many people these days have turntables to play vinyl. I know it is big with the audiophiles, but does the average Joe have a turntable? ... "Vinyl"?? Maybe I am missing something here when it comes to vinyl in lieu of CD's.

The 'elite' audiophiles out there who buy $5K turntables seriously believe that the stylus noise and distorted sound of an album gives it some kind of special analog life. What it actually gives the sound is a layer of coloration, and soon after that, a hissy layer of snap, crackle and pop.

I once worked with one of those guys, an engineer who should know better. He had a $400, 3 foot power cord plugged into his desk top receiver at work.

I saw his face kind of contort with some intense mental gymnastics when I casually mentioned that there was 25 year old 16 gauge copper on the other side of the wall plate he plugged into. He emerged with a smile and found a way to justify it, I knew he would.

It is a belief system.

[backup]

Originally Posted by Big Brother

The 'elite' audiophiles out there who buy $5K turntables seriously believe that the stylus noise and distorted sound of an album gives it some kind of special analog life. What it actually gives the sound is a layer of coloration, and soon after that, a hissy layer of snap, crackle and pop.

I once worked with one of those guys, an engineer who should know better. He had a $400, 3 foot power cord plugged into his desk top receiver at work.

I saw his face kind of contort with some intense mental gymnastics when I casually mentioned that there was 25 year old 16 gauge copper on the other side of the wall plate he plugged into. He emerged with a smile and found a way to justify it, I knew he would.

It is a belief system.

standard scenario

[BigRedX]

Originally Posted by Bassist4Eris

Regarding the CD format, I wish I could make my bandmates understand that. I really think going all-download is a good way to control costs. But it is nice to be able to hand somebody something tangible. Download card, maybe? My guitar player wants to press vinyl

CD might be a dying format for mainstream acts and in the almost defunct record shop, but for small gigging bands it is very much alive.

If they've enjoyed your gig, audience members like to go home with a physical reminder of the evening and what could be better than a recording of your music? A download coupon is all very well, but it doesn't have the same immediacy. Besides any fool with an audio file of their music and a spare $50 can get their song on iTunes and Amazon for download. Having physical product for sale shows that the band has a serious commitment towards what they do.

By all means make your music available for those who do want to download. It's cheap and easy to do, so you'd be mad not to. However my band sells far more CDs at gigs than we do downloads from all the stores combined. We've made the CD more attractive by including an 8 page booklet comic telling the story of the RockinRollin' VampireMan (all you get is the front cover with the downloaded songs) and we'll be continuing the story with the next CD.

And don't be so quick to dismiss a vinyl release. There's a definite niche market for it with a sizeable audience who'll buy your release simply because of the format. It does cost more money - especially if you go for fancy packaging - but as a product you can charge a premium for it.

For all its supposed simplicity downloaded music is fairly ephemeral. IME most people don't backup their collections so a virus or a hard disk failure could wipe out their copy of your songs forever. They may well not bother to try and replace your music and that's a listener lost. Remember also that the people who buy your CD and/or vinyl release are likely to be more enthusiastic about your band. These are the people you most want to connect with as an audience, who will be back to see you play again and buy your next release too.

[bassbully]

Originally Posted by BigRedX

CD might be a dying format for mainstream acts and in the almost defunct record shop, but for small gigging bands it is very much alive.

If they've enjoyed your gig, audience members like to go home with a physical reminder of the evening and what could be better than a recording of your music? A download coupon is all very well, but it doesn't have the same immediacy. Besides any fool with an audio file of their music and a spare $50 can get their song on iTunes and Amazon for download. Having physical product for sale shows that the band has a serious commitment towards what they do.

By all means make your music available for those who do want to download. It's cheap and easy to do, so you'd be mad not to. However my band sells far more CDs at gigs than we do downloads from all the stores combined. We've made the CD more attractive by including an 8 page booklet comic telling the story of the RockinRollin' VampireMan (all you get is the front cover with the downloaded songs) and we'll be continuing the story with the next CD.

And don't be so quick to dismiss a vinyl release. There's a definite niche market for it with a sizeable audience who'll buy your release simply because of the format. It does cost more money - especially if you go for fancy packaging - but as a product you can charge a premium for it.

For all its supposed simplicity downloaded music is fairly ephemeral. IME most people don't backup their collections so a virus or a hard disk failure could wipe out their copy of your songs forever. They may well not bother to try and replace your music and that's a listener lost. Remember also that the people who buy your CD and/or vinyl release are likely to be more enthusiastic about your band. These are the people you most want to connect with as an audience, who will be back to see you play again and buy your next release too.

I agree and my band still sells the album we did over a year ago on CD. We don't have download cards but we have a CD baby and all the other sites who sell them and a physical pressed CDs sell way better.

I still get asked for CD's when I'm out and cant remember when anyone asked for a download. Myself i buy bands CD's at shows since I really am not a download guy I need a tangible product like the old record days.

[DwaynieAD]

Originally Posted by Bassist4Eris

Vinyl has apparently become trendy amongst 20-something hipsters. Of course, that's probably just a fad. Guitarist says he put a feeler out on our Facebook page, and got a lot of positive responses to the idea of releasing a vinyl record. We were going to include download cards too. But when we looked at the costs, it just wasn't worth it.

I personally still have a turntable, but that's so I can play all my old records. I rarely buy a new release on vinyl. A local band I like put out a 7" recently, and I bought that because that's just cool. Reminds me of my youth.

vinyl never went away in the punk or hardcore scene and it sells fast.

[agreatheight]

There are things you do for love. There are things you do for money. If you get very lucky, some things you can do for both. Usually not, though.

It can be very difficult to make money doing originals, but if you are a) good b) lucky / well positioned c) smart it can be done. Work hard, play less often, sell profitably merch, be professional, etc. I have played in close to 10 originals bands and have been in one that made regular money. But it did make money.

Best of luck!

[ShoeManiac]

I don't think anyone intends for the discussion to be a format war. The whole CD versus MP3 versus Vinyl conversation really needs to be held in context. That context being WHAT WORKS BEST FOR YOUR BAND FROM A BUSINESS STANDPOINT. In other words, which sells better with your fan base?

I used to be much more plugged into the punk & hardcore scene. But vinyl was definitely big there. Especially 7" singles. And yes, hipsters have definitely picked up on vinyl. Now, will it work for ANY bands prospective audience? The answer to that depends on your fanbase. If they dig on vinyl, then you've got the potential for a few things. Your markup on vinyl can definitely be higher. But you're also going to be in a position where you're going to need to provide download cards with each copy. Hosting your music on a download site will have to be factored into your costs. But before you go into a vinyl pressing you have to be very tapped into whether or not your fans are going to be onboard with a vinyl release.

As for a CD pressing? I think that still has greater potential for sales at gigs. Even though people may be ditching their CD collections in greater numbers, they still have CD players in their computers. The hardware is there for them to play your material, whereas turntables are much less ubiquitous. And the CD also provides an easier interface into someone's digital music library. Selling it at a gig is a lot easier than selling a download card, simply because at a venue people are going to want to hold something tangible.

As for downloads? I think you need to take them seriously and provide them for potential fans who can't make it to your shows. The internet and social media have changed the world to an amazing degree. And social media gives you the opportunity to reach people who may love your material but aren't located someplace that your band is playing live. Those people are going to want to buy downloads.

[Asbrinkman]

Originally Posted by ShoeManiac

I don't think anyone intends for the discussion to be a format war. The whole CD versus MP3 versus Vinyl conversation really needs to be held in context. That context being WHAT WORKS BEST FOR YOUR BAND FROM A BUSINESS STANDPOINT. In other words, which sells better with your fan base?

I used to be much more plugged into the punk & hardcore scene. But vinyl was definitely big there. Especially 7" singles. And yes, hipsters have definitely picked up on vinyl. Now, will it work for ANY bands prospective audience? The answer to that depends on your fanbase. If they dig on vinyl, then you've got the potential for a few things. Your markup on vinyl can definitely be higher. But you're also going to be in a position where you're going to need to provide download cards with each copy. Hosting your music on a download site will have to be factored into your costs. But before you go into a vinyl pressing you have to be very tapped into whether or not your fans are going to be onboard with a vinyl release.

As for a CD pressing? I think that still has greater potential for sales at gigs. Even though people may be ditching their CD collections in greater numbers, they still have CD players in their computers. The hardware is there for them to play your material, whereas turntables are much less ubiquitous. And the CD also provides an easier interface into someone's digital music library. Selling it at a gig is a lot easier than selling a download card, simply because at a venue people are going to want to hold something tangible.

As for downloads? I think you need to take them seriously and provide them for potential fans who can't make it to your shows. The internet and social media have changed the world to an amazing degree. And social media gives you the opportunity to reach people who may love your material but aren't located someplace that your band is playing live. Those people are going to want to buy downloads.

I don't know if anyone pointed this out or not, but in order to get your music accepted and played on Pandora and other Internet radio sites you must have some sort of retail ready product with a UPC code. With the pandora scenario, your retail ready music must also be for sale on Amazon. In my band's case, it was still a necessity to get a batch of CD's pressed.

[Stewie26]

Originally Posted by ShoeManiac

A good thing to consider with your CD? First, realize that the CD format is dying.

Funny thing. I was talking to a friend yesterday who works for General Motors. He said all the 2013 Chevy models
will no longer have CD players built into the radio. Yes, it is a dying format.

[ShoeManiac]

Originally Posted by Asbrinkman

I don't know if anyone pointed this out or not, but in order to get your music accepted and played on Pandora and other Internet radio sites you must have some sort of retail ready product with a UPC code. With the pandora scenario, your retail ready music must also be for sale on Amazon. In my band's case, it was still a necessity to get a batch of CD's pressed.

Working with a company like CD Baby can get you that UPC code. And it really is so important to have that. It's one of those details that gets glossed over when you're working on the musical end of a release. CD Baby actually has info for getting a barcode on their site. Other CD manufacturers can get you this as well. What I've found with CD Baby is that you can get a full range of services:

-Online sales of CD hard copies
-Hosting for MP3 stores like iTunes, etc
-Bar code registration

[mellowgerman]

Honestly, I've never wanted music to be a source of income as I find that to introduce an inevitable element of stress. With that in mind, I don't expect to make any money from the time and effort put into my originals band... basically getting paid in fun, as silly as that may sound to some. We've also never had an issue of not cutting even. I feel like well-thought-out promotion and merchandise, along with a bit of pay from gigs, allows us to cover all our expenses and sometimes have enough left over for a few cases of beer and a pizza
Along this same line of thought, this is also one of the main reasons why I'm only in one band.

[SteveHeissner]

I play in two bands. One does mostly covers and plays out 3 times a month. Then I play in the 2nd band that does originals and gets paid almost nothing, which is OK since I get paid playing covers with the other band.

[Spinal Tapper]

Originally Posted by agreatheight

There are things you do for love. There are things you do for money. If you get very lucky, some things you can do for both. Usually not, though.

I agree w/ this. All 5 of the guys in my band have full time jobs. One is even a dean at a highschool. We're in our late 20's (I'm 30 )

We all have the money to record, travel, and push the band to it's fullest potential from a financial standpoint, but the irony is that with our full-time jobs, we don't have the time to tour 200 days a year like a lot of bands who are "making it" get to do.

Your best bet is to write a hit single and sell it to a TV commercial.

[Demonjrx]

Watch this documentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJSp-yRMrsY
EVERYONE joining, forming, starting, etc. an original band should watch this.

While I am aware that this movie is about a bunch of extreme metal/hardcore punk bands, it is still true for many original musicians. There's a quote in this movie that fits any 'artist' in any form of art, that I hold true to the heart.

"Most of the time, you have to make the art that you want to make, and figure out some other way to get by." - Micah Consylman; Bella Morte