Encores

[mr13ump]

Alright guys, tonight my band played a Christmas party pay-to-play gig. Overall it was a great night. We got a good time slot, basically filled the room, and rocked it (even with a limited half-hour slot). Apparently we really nailed it, as we were asked for an encore. We had already filled our half hour of music, and still got the go-ahead from the guy orchestrating the event before we began. We played for about another five minutes, and then quickly got off the stage. i was very happy about the result, but what kinda confused me was that he cut the set of the band that followed us. They had to dump one of their songs and were understandably irritated (especially since they had sold more tickets than us). After the show the band was pretty cool about it with us, as we had no idea that their set was going to be shortened. Has anyone on here had any experiences like this, and what was the outcome? Also, how do you treat song selection for your encores? We are a mostly originals band but usually bring out one of our better known covers whenever we get an encore. Tonight it was "Undone (The Sweater song)" by Weezer, although i wanted to play "Are you Gonna be my Girl?" by Jet. Any advice on this topic would be great for future reference.

[Downunderwonder]

Don't pay to play.

[MarkMgibson]

You were asked to play an encore, so you did. The other band might have a grievance with the club owner, but it's not your problem.

I'm rather old-fashioned when it comes to encores. I dislike the current trend where bands keep songs in reserve to play for an encore. It used to be the case that bands played their full repertoire of songs, and "if" they were called for an encore, they would play a cover. Nowadays, encores are built into the show, and that's not how it's supposed to be.

MarkM

P.S DownunderW. is right about the "pay to play" thing - it's just wrong (even Kiwi's are right once in a while)

[CS]

Pay to play aside stuff like that happens on a multi band bill. I did one where the band before mine was late and my set was cut by 10 minutes. They were local we were not.

[MNAirHead]

In this case you're "renting" a time slot--- the venue is your customer

You "used up" your paid for allotted time

Unless the next band "asked" you to play one. You essentially stole some of their paid for time.

---

Guess in a karma type thing - you guys should pay the next band for their prepaid time you used

Cut them a check today


---•

Stuff like this is what makes playing unprofitable

[DSims63]

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

In this case you're "renting" a time slot--- the venue is your customer

You "used up" your paid for allotted time

Unless the next band "asked" you to play one. You essentially stole some of their paid for time.

---

Guess in a karma type thing - you guys should pay the next band for their prepaid time you used

Cut them a check today

---•

Stuff like this is what makes playing unprofitable

The guy running the event gave them the go ahead, why should they have to pay anyone? Also I did not read that the other band was penalized monetarily for the encore so again see no reason to pay anyone.

[fdeck]

The other band would be rightfully annoyed for not getting the full value that they paid for, but it's not the first band's fault.

My view is that if you pay for a service, then you have a right to expect the service to be performed in a complete and workmanlike fashion. Imagine if you paid to get the tires changed on your car, and the customer before you asked for an extra tire, so you only got three tires.

[kjpollo]

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

In this case you're "renting" a time slot--- the venue is your customer

You "used up" your paid for allotted time

Unless the next band "asked" you to play one. You essentially stole some of their paid for time.

---

Guess in a karma type thing - you guys should pay the next band for their prepaid time you used

Cut them a check today


---•

Stuff like this is what makes playing unprofitable

You're using "customer" in the wrong context. The customer is the one DOING the paying, not the one getting paid. When I buy something at a store, I"M the customer. Same deal here. The band paid to play so THEY are the customer, not the venue.

That being said, I'm kinda confused by 2 things the OP said that contradict each other. First he says they were ASKED to do an encore. But then he says they already HAD the go-ahead for the encore before they even began??
My opinion swings depending on which statement is true. If the encore was really a spur-of-the-moment request from the venue, then I dont think they owe the other band anything. BUT if they pre-arranged the encore and knowingly exceeded their time slot, then they DO owe somebody the extra money.

[Piggy8692]

It sounds to me they got the go ahead before they began the encore... If the orchestrator is going to give out encores, he should extend the while show. To be fair and professional anyway.

I've been asked to do an encore, but didn't have enough material. If your asked for one by the audience, take it. They dont like it when you refuse.

[Not yet]

Agree... Paying to play as an institution is an insult to all of us

[kjpollo]

Originally Posted by DSims63

The guy running the event gave them the go ahead, why should they have to pay anyone? Also I did not read that the other band was penalized monetarily for the encore so again see no reason to pay anyone.

But the other band WAS penalized monetarily. They had to give up some of the playing time THEY paid for through no fault of their own. If I pay to rent a studio for 3 hours but the band in there before me goes overtime and I only get 2 hours before the place closes, there's no way I should have to eat the cost of that extra hour. I should either get a refund from the studio owner or I should get an hour for free the next time I go in.
Granted, in this case we're only looking at the other band having to cut one song from their set but still, they presumably also paid full value for their half hour slot and didnt get the full half hour. Bad practice on the part of the promoter, really.
But the easiest thing would have been for the promoter to just extend the whole show to allow for it. Maybe tell bands they have less time to exit and enter the stage or something.
The promoter was the one who is wrong here. HE should give the other band something of a refund, NOT the OP's band.

But now its a lesson learned for the OP's band. If they find themselves in this situation again, they should ask first "if we do an encore, will the next band's set be shortened?". If the promoter tells them yes, then they should NOT do the encore. Now they have the responsibility to ask.

I'm not even getting into the debate over "pay to play" gigs. I've seen it covered dozens of times around here. The veterans say you should never do it and the young bands often think they have no alternative when they're trying to start out.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by kjpollo

But the other band WAS penalized monetarily. They had to give up some of the playing time THEY paid for through no fault of their own. If I pay to rent a studio for 3 hours but the band in there before me goes overtime and I only get 2 hours before the place closes, there's no way I should have to eat the cost of that extra hour. I should either get a refund from the studio owner or I should get an hour for free the next time I go in.
Granted, in this case we're only looking at the other band having to cut one song from their set but still, they presumably also paid full value for their half hour slot and didnt get the full half hour. Bad practice on the part of the promoter, really.
But the easiest thing would have been for the promoter to just extend the whole show to allow for it. Maybe tell bands they have less time to exit and enter the stage or something.
The promoter was the one who is wrong here. HE should give the other band something of a refund, NOT the OP's band.

But now its a lesson learned for the OP's band. If they find themselves in this situation again, they should ask first "if we do an encore, will the next band's set be shortened?". If the promoter tells them yes, then they should NOT do the encore. Now they have the responsibility to ask.

I'm not even getting into the debate over "pay to play" gigs. I've seen it covered dozens of times around here. The veterans say you should never do it and the young bands often think they have no alternative when they're trying to start out.

Pretty much this.

[Groovy_Gravy]

LOL @ pay to play

[DSims63]

Originally Posted by kjpollo

But the other band WAS penalized monetarily. They had to give up some of the playing time THEY paid for through no fault of their own. If I pay to rent a studio for 3 hours but the band in there before me goes overtime and I only get 2 hours before the place closes, there's no way I should have to eat the cost of that extra hour. I should either get a refund from the studio owner or I should get an hour for free the next time I go in.
Granted, in this case we're only looking at the other band having to cut one song from their set but still, they presumably also paid full value for their half hour slot and didnt get the full half hour. Bad practice on the part of the promoter, really.
But the easiest thing would have been for the promoter to just extend the whole show to allow for it. Maybe tell bands they have less time to exit and enter the stage or something.
The promoter was the one who is wrong here. HE should give the other band something of a refund, NOT the OP's band.

But now its a lesson learned for the OP's band. If they find themselves in this situation again, they should ask first "if we do an encore, will the next band's set be shortened?". If the promoter tells them yes, then they should NOT do the encore. Now they have the responsibility to ask.

I'm not even getting into the debate over "pay to play" gigs. I've seen it covered dozens of times around here. The veterans say you should never do it and the young bands often think they have no alternative when they're trying to start out.

There is a reason I read Talkbass Forum several times a day, i learn something every time. I did not know about this pay to play deal. How much do you pay for this roughly?

[MNAirHead]

Originally Posted by kjpollo

You're using "customer" in the wrong context. The customer is the one DOING the paying, not the one getting paid. When I buy something at a store, I"M the customer. Same deal here. The band paid to play so THEY are the customer, not the venue.

That being said, I'm kinda confused by 2 things the OP said that contradict each other. First he says they were ASKED to do an encore. But then he says they already HAD the go-ahead for the encore before they even began??
My opinion swings depending on which statement is true. If the encore was really a spur-of-the-moment request from the venue, then I dont think they owe the other band anything. BUT if they pre-arranged the encore and knowingly exceeded their time slot, then they DO owe somebody the extra money.

You're 100% correct (sorry for the speed typing)

The 2nd band paid for time... they did not receive their full alloted time... they're owed to be compensated by someone.

[kjpollo]

Originally Posted by DSims63

There is a reason I read Talkbass Forum several times a day, i learn something every time. I did not know about this pay to play deal. How much do you pay for this roughly?

I've never been involved in it personally, but a guitarist I used to hang with said that when he was starting out back in the 80's there were several venues in our area (Central CT) that did this.
From what he told me, the most common tactic was that a club owner would say, "we'll let you play (for an hour, half-hour, whatever) BUT you have to sell X number of tickets for that night's show" and hand them a stack. The more stage time you wanted, the bigger the stack of tickets was.
So those cases, the band members would pay for the tickets themselves so they were guaranteed the spot and then try to re-sell the tickets they had already paid for.
Feel free to take this with a grain of salt though. I'm just repeating what I was told by somebody else.

[DSims63]

Originally Posted by kjpollo

I've never been involved in it personally, but a guitarist I used to hang with said that when he was starting out back in the 80's there were several venues in our area (Central CT) that did this.
From what he told me, the most common tactic was that a club owner would say, "we'll let you play (for an hour, half-hour, whatever) BUT you have to sell X number of tickets for that night's show" and hand them a stack. The more stage time you wanted, the bigger the stack of tickets was.
So those cases, the band members would pay for the tickets themselves so they were guaranteed the spot and then try to re-sell the tickets they had already paid for.
Feel free to take this with a grain of salt though. I'm just repeating what I was told by somebody else.

Thanks for the info, this new to me.

[stagebanter]

We stumbled onto our favorite encore by accident and we use it a lot now. One of the vocalists comes out and starts freestyling (rapping) and the crowd starts clapping. Then we start playing a tune that the trumpet player wrote.

[kjpollo]

Originally Posted by DSims63

Thanks for the info, this new to me.

You're welcome, though I'm sure there are other ways the deal works.
Maybe the OP can tell us how it worked for his band.

[mr13ump]

Originally Posted by kjpollo

You're using "customer" in the wrong context. The customer is the one DOING the paying, not the one getting paid. When I buy something at a store, I"M the customer. Same deal here. The band paid to play so THEY are the customer, not the venue.

That being said, I'm kinda confused by 2 things the OP said that contradict each other. First he says they were ASKED to do an encore. But then he says they already HAD the go-ahead for the encore before they even began??
My opinion swings depending on which statement is true. If the encore was really a spur-of-the-moment request from the venue, then I dont think they owe the other band anything. BUT if they pre-arranged the encore and knowingly exceeded their time slot, then they DO owe somebody the extra money.

Sorry I wasn't exactly clear enough on what happened. We finished our set, and the crowd was asking for an encore. Before we began playing we made sure that the guy running the show was ok with it, and he told us to go for it. He then proceeded to cut the following bands set time, which strikes me as strange and unfair to the other band. Had i known their set would have been cut I would not have went through with the encore.