The End of the Band (?)

[Flatbass]

Hi all...

My band has been together for 2 years now. We started as a high school-band, but we we're really serious. In the beginning we all (drummer, me, guitarist and the female singer) worked hard writing new songs, getting gigs, promoting, rehearsing etc. Because of this, we won several battle-of-the-band-gigs played more gigs and got better gigs than all the other bands of our age. Our style is brit-pop/rock. Influences are Oasis, The Coral, Mando Diao (from Sweden, has anyone here heard of them?)...
I came up with a lot of ideas, that would turn into songs later. The guitarplayer adding parts and the female singer writing lyrics.

One year ago we had a hard time continuing the band, because she had problems with her voice and also had an operation. That's not anyone's fault, but we had to cancel a lot of gigs.

Now, we all left high school and went studying. The female singer went to a conservatory (music school). She's listening to a lot of jazz and more 'sophisticated' music. There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, I also play in a jazz-band myself and plan on going to a conservatory. The problem is that she doesn't like our simple music anymore. She didn't told us this for a while, she just stopped working on songs. So I started writing lyrics, learning to play the guitar, sing and write complete songs.

She also disagrees about the way we rehearse. I often record a 'demo' of a song. The chords, structure, melody, rhythm and overall feel of the song are already there. Then we play the song a few times and add little things (accents, dynamics etc).
We'll play the song at gigs and always improvise a little bit (changing fills, solo's, guitar licks etc, not really jamming our way through a song). It's fun and sometimes we'll get ideas of how to make the song a little bit better.
She said, she would rather rehearse the song for a long time., Changing small things each time we play it. In the end, we would have a perfect 'arrangement' for the song. Then, we could play it at gigs.

Another disagreement: the number of gigs we do. She is a person who gets ill quite easily. She won't rehearse when we have a gig later that day. The day after a gig, she's really tired, she says. According to her, every single gig should be special. Playing a lot of gigs with the same songs, almost the same way, is 'mass production' to her. Especially because she doesn't write songs/lyrics/melodies anymore, doesn't rehearse as often as we do, and I'm telling her exactly what to sing.
The drummer, guitarist and me just want to do as many gigs as possible and do the 'professional rock-thing'.

So she isn't happy with the way we do gigs, rehearse and the music itself. A few weeks ago we talked about this. She agreed that she didn't like the situation of the band right now and wanted more influence musically. At the same time, she has no time left to 'work' for the band. The conservatory is taking up all her time. At one point, she started crying. She really feels the 'connection' between all the band members and the whole 'being in a band and getting something done'-thing. She said she was afraid of being fired. She said she would write some stuff for the band (somehow, she would find time for this).

Two weeks later. She said she would just sing whatever we would tell her to and agree with not having any influence. She's going to join a jazzband to be able to be able to write her own music and have influence. Allright... at least we know where we stand now. I have no problem writing all the music for the band, if that's going to keep the band together.

Later that night, she met the drummer in a bar and she said that she didn't like the band at all. She didn't tell me anything when I met her (before I heard this from the drummer).

It seems like she really wants to be in the band and leaving is like throwing away what we've all worked for. But everyone is getting frustrated the way it's going now.

Now, we have to decide on what to do.
The drummer said he will just play the drums untill the band falls apart and not do anything.
The guitarist is thinking about leaving, if the singer doesn't quit herself. But he would rather see her leave and continue without her.

Myself... I'm in a few bands around here. I'm a bit know as 'the local bassplayer'. I can join another band tomorrow if I would want to, but I don't. I want to be in this band. This is the music I want to play. We are all friends. I just want it to be a stable, reliable, hard working band that's fun to be in and maybe is going to be big, one day.

This saturday, we're going to rehearse again. This time, I want to know what the singer wants in this band. It's like there are 3 people pushing a car and another one is hitting the brake. Everyone feels like that band is going to end, we just don't know when.
This saturday, I would like the singer to make the decision. If she's in the band, then she's has to 'go for it'. If she doesn't want to or doesn't have the time or the ambition, she can leave. We know that we're never going to find someone who sings and entertains the crowd as good she does. She IS really really good... but I guess it's better have the band back on track or start a new one as soon as possible.

I really feel bad about doing this, but someone has to... and the others won't do it, so I guess I have to. This is especially difficult, because I'm a big part of the band (writing songs and stuff) and I disagree a lot with our singer. We also agree to disagree a lot, we're still friends.
Because I'm a bit like a 'band leader', it may seem to her that I'm just kicking her out...


Has anyone got any advice, on what to do and what to say? Has anyone ever been in this situation before? When someone wants to be in the band, but doesn't want to 'go for it'.


Sorry for this terribly long message. I hope it won't scare anyone.
Sorry for another attempt of mine at the English language.
Oh well, it's probaby a good excercise for writing lyrics

[DaftCat]

Originally Posted by Flatbass

We know that we're never going to find someone who sings and entertains the crowd as good she does.

First off, never say never.

You need a band meeting pronto IMHO. It really is this simple.
It isn't all about her. If you want to tolerate that, go ahead. If you can get it into her head she is 1/4 of the band then you might have a chance of working together later on.

My .02 worth,

[GravitiesBass]

to me, it sounds like she went off to school and all of a sudden feels she's better than you and your band. In my experiance, if someones already moved on, it's best to let them leave.

I'd say let her go, if she's not into it anymore it's just going to make being in the band no fun for the rest of you. Sure you may have to rethink and retool the band, but it sounds like the rest of you are pretty tight and should be able to come through the other side.

[jwl]

the personal relationship you all have together is what brought you together. all of your music stems from this. that is what you need to work on. if you want the other members to embrace your ideas, you need to embrace their's as well. a band is a family. the sound of any given band changes with the members changing musical interests. accepting this truth will go a long way in keeping your band together. embrace the changes your singer is experiencing, if it is important for you to be in a band with her. you can have a million band meetings, but words are just words. to really show you care about your band members interests, you need to do it through your actions and your attitude. peace, jeff

[invader3k]

To me this sounds like someone who wants to "have her cake and eat it too." She doesn't want to actually do any work for the band, but still wants the glory of being the lead singer. I also think she still wants to be friends with you and others in the band. One big tip off is how you wrote that she doesn't have time to write anymore, but she also is apparently in a jazz band now?! It sounds like she has already moved on from your band, but doesn't have the courage to tell you she wants to quit.

You need to talk with her and explain that you guys are still all good friends, but she needs to make the right decision on this, and stick with it. If she feels she needs to leave the band, then fine, but you guys can still be friends. If she wants to stay, then that is great, but she needs to agree to do the work and do the gigs the rest of you want to do.

That's another thing. What are the goals of the band? It sound like yourself and the other two want to gig a lot, while she wants to hardly gig at all. You all need to be on the same page as far as amount of gigs you can do, what the ultimate goals are, style of music, etc.

[Marcus]

That singer you speak of sounds awfully self-important. Ditch her.

[McHack]

self-important? yea, so much so that she's crying over it... Nice...

If she's in a different place, & she's not telling YOU, have you wonder why she can't be honest w/ YOU? Kinda seems like you might be pressuring her to stick it out, even tho its making her miserable. That doesn't seem right to me.

[FaithNoMan]

Originally Posted by McHack

self-important? yea, so much so that she's crying over it... Nice...

If she's in a different place, & she's not telling YOU, have you wonder why she can't be honest w/ YOU? Kinda seems like you might be pressuring her to stick it out, even tho its making her miserable. That doesn't seem right to me.

+1

I was thinking the same thing

[IanStephenson]

I'd agree with others - she's moved on, but doesn't want to break the link with the past.

I think you need to push her to make the decision to leave. You don't really want to kick her out, but you need to let her know that you understand she needs to move on, and that you support her decision - that you're still friends, and maybe you'll work together again in the future.

Her indecision is having a knock on effect on the rest of the band - they see the band falling apart, and so they're getting ready to abandon ship. You need to chop of the leg to save the patient. Once she's gone you can regroup - either with you singing, or get a new singer, but either way you cna start moving forwards, rather than just trying to keep things together.

Ian

[addylewis]

You said you'd like to know by saturday...

Arrange a band meeting for satuday ASAP (even if it means getting people out of work for the day) and you all explain to her what your ambitions/hopes for the band are and ask her if she agrees...if not then pop the question "Are you really happy in this band? blah-blah" then give her 2 weeks to think about it, and explain she has to pull her own weight within the band or you may have to lose her

(thats not being too nasty...but MAKE SURE YOU AND THE OTHER BAND MEMBERS ALL AGREE TO THIS BEFORE THE MEETING!)

Good luck, let us know what happens dude!

[Flatbass]

Thanks A LOT for reading my message and replying!! Really... THANKS A LOT!

Originally Posted by DaftCat

First off, never say never.

You need a band meeting pronto IMHO. It really is this simple.
It isn't all about her. If you want to tolerate that, go ahead. If you can get it into her head she is 1/4 of the band then

you might have a chance of working together later on.

My .02 worth,

I agree with 'never say never'... I should have said that it's going to be really really hard to find someone as good as her.
I know a lot of singers and other musician in this area. Most of them sing out of tune all the time. A few can sing in tune, but are like statues on stage. No-one is remotely as musical and charismatic as she is...
It may be a good idea to meet somewhere outside our rehearsal room and without any instruments.
I don't mind that some are working harder than others, but you are right that we are constantly adapting, just to keep her in the band.

Originally Posted by GravitiesBass

to me, it sounds like she went off to school and all of a sudden feels she's better than you and your

band. In my experiance, if someones already moved on, it's best to let them leave.

I'd say let her go, if she's not into it anymore it's just going to make being in the band no fun for the rest of you. Sure

you may have to rethink and retool the band, but it sounds like the rest of you are pretty tight and should be able to come

through the other side.

She probably has already moved on, yeah...
If she wants to leave, that's fine with us. The problem is, she doesn't want to leave. And she doesn't like that band the way it's now. So if we want to 'let her go', we would have to fire her. It's not easy to fire someone who wants to be in the band, who showed that she can work hard and 'feel commitment'.

Originally Posted by jwl

the personal relationship you all have together is what brought you together. all of your music stems from this.

that is what you need to work on. if you want the other members to embrace your ideas, you need to embrace their's as well. a

band is a family. the sound of any given band changes with the members changing musical interests. accepting this truth will

go a long way in keeping your band together. embrace the changes your singer is experiencing, if it is important for you to

be in a band with her. you can have a million band meetings, but words are just words. to really show you care about your

band members interests, you need to do it through your actions and your attitude. peace, jeff

Music brought us together, not friendship. But we meet eachother also when we're not making music. Watching movies, seeing bands, talk... music brought us together, but we all became friends afterwards.
I like your concept of embracing changes, there's some truth in there. But it's hard to embrace the idea of doing less gigs :/
Putting some other influences into our music is great, but we are happy with our music as it is now. Maybe this shows may inability to embrace changes... but I think there is some limit to this...
It's not that much about embracing little changes, it's also about fundamental things.
As an example:
We also like to adapt the music to the audience. Someone in the band may write a really interesting latin-jazz-jam-ballad, but we won't play it if it doesn't suit the audiences we usually play (rock clubs, festivals).
She just wants to make music that she likes. I can understand that, but I like the audience to like it too. We did this before and agreed that our gigs were better because the music and the audience 'matched'.

I respect your opinion. I think it may work great for friends that happen to make music together, and the changes are not that big. Or maybe... this is my inability to accept changes. The singer has said to me that I often have a strong opinion and I stick to it. I think this is because I think a lot before I say something, and I think a lot about what's right or wrong. I can always defend my opinion quite well, but if someone else convinces me that I'm wrong, I will admit that I'm wrong.

Peace!

Originally Posted by invader3k

To me this sounds like someone who wants to "have her cake and eat it too." She doesn't want to actually do

any work for the band, but still wants the glory of being the lead singer. I also think she still wants to be friends with

you and others in the band. One big tip off is how you wrote that she doesn't have time to write anymore, but she also is

apparently in a jazz band now?! It sounds like she has already moved on from your band, but doesn't have the courage to tell

you she wants to quit.

You need to talk with her and explain that you guys are still all good friends, but she needs to make the right decision on

this, and stick with it. If she feels she needs to leave the band, then fine, but you guys can still be friends. If she wants

to stay, then that is great, but she needs to agree to do the work and do the gigs the rest of you want to do.

That's another thing. What are the goals of the band? It sound like yourself and the other two want to gig a lot, while she

wants to hardly gig at all. You all need to be on the same page as far as amount of gigs you can do, what the ultimate goals

are, style of music, etc.

Thanks for pointing that out. She's not in a jazzband right now, but she auditioned for two bands and will join one of them.
She agreed that she didn't really have time to be in a jazzband, but she said that the conservatory practically wants her to and she didn't really have a choice.

I don't think that she wants to quit. I don't know if I can say this correctly, but I think she just doesn't want to face the reality of the situation. She doesn't want to make a decision or think about making a decision. I hope I can make myself clear.

The goals that we all had were: doing a lot of gigs, making nice music, getting people to know us, save money from our gigs to hire a professional studio, have fun, playing bigger stages... Being a semi-pro band trying to get bigger. It seems that she has changed her goals, while the drummer, guitarist and me still have the same goals.
We've always made pop/rock-music. Catchy stuff. Chorus/Verse/Bridge. In the beginning we had songs ranging from blues to jazz to hardrock. Now, our music is a bit more refined. It's more like britpop/rock, but are influences from blues to jazz to rock'n'roll to latin to ... whatever we can find
Now that she's listening to jazz a lot, she starts to like it more and more. Which is great, but she also starts to dislike the britpop/rock roots of our music.
She said that she didn't have the time to contribute to the music style of the band, so she agreed on just singing what we want her to. It seems like a fair solution, but I don't think it's going to work. Probably because music is about emotion and 'if you dont feel it, dont play it'...

Originally Posted by Marcus Alan

That singer you speak of sounds awfully self-important. Ditch her.

I know she acts that way, getting everyone to adapt to her. But this is not the case.
She just wants to do it all: jazzbands, poprock, conservatory, sessions, projects... she doesn't have the time for all this, but she doesn't want to give up something.

Originally Posted by McHack

self-important? yea, so much so that she's crying over it... Nice...

If she's in a different place, & she's not telling YOU, have you wonder why she can't be honest w/ YOU? Kinda seems like

you might be pressuring her to stick it out, even tho its making her miserable. That doesn't seem right to me.

Very good reply. I like to question myself, before I question others. The reason she told the drummer that she doesn't like the band, is probably because this was in a bar and she drank alcohol. Also, our drummer is an easy laidback guy and the guitarist and I can be more direct and a bit rude, even if we want to say things nicely. The singer and I also have had a few arguments about money. But it wasn't like a fight or anything. We are friends. Not reaaally close, but good friends.

I really hope I'm not putting any pressure on her to stay in the band. I've never thought of this before... maybe because she was afraid to be 'fired'. Why would she be afraid to be fired, and feel pressure to be staying in the band?
Can someone tell me a bit more about this? I would like to know if I'm doing something wrong, so that I can change it. I am serious.

Originally Posted by IanStephenson

I'd agree with others - she's moved on, but doesn't want to break the link with the past.

I think you need to push her to make the decision to leave. You don't really want to kick her out, but you need to let her

know that you understand she needs to move on, and that you support her decision - that you're still friends, and maybe

you'll work together again in the future.

Her indecision is having a knock on effect on the rest of the band - they see the band falling apart, and so they're getting

ready to abandon ship. You need to chop of the leg to save the patient. Once she's gone you can regroup - either with you

singing, or get a new singer, but either way you cna start moving forwards, rather than just trying to keep things together.

Ian

This is like a summary of my thoughts.
Thanks. Well put.

Originally Posted by addylewis

You said you'd like to know by saturday...

Arrange a band meeting for satuday ASAP (even if it means getting people out of work for the day) and you all explain to her

what your ambitions/hopes for the band are and ask her if she agrees...if not then pop the question "Are you really

happy in this band? blah-blah" then give her 2 weeks to think about it, and explain she has to pull her own weight within the

band or you may have to lose her

(thats not being too nasty...but MAKE SURE YOU AND THE OTHER BAND MEMBERS ALL AGREE TO THIS BEFORE THE MEETING!)

Good luck, let us know what happens dude!

The other band members all agree. We have our own band-guestbook somewhere. Only bandmembers know it excist and we post messages there about gigs, practical stuff, transportation, we talk about ideas for songs etc. Our singer has quit reading this guestbook because she didn't have time for it. I think this is rather strange... but anyway, I started mailing her the most important stuff about the band, so she would still be 'up to date'. She never replied my e-mails, but she did read them and listened to new 'in-the-band-demos'. The other bandmembers still use this guestbook to keep in touch about band related things. We also talk a lot on the MSN-network about new demos, the direction of the band, other bands and other stuff. We know what we want and we're always busy talking about how to achive what we want. The singer doesn't spend much time on the internet and never really participated in all the talking.

I'll try to arrange something this saturday.

Now there's another anoying thing. We still have 5 gigs to play, the first one is this saturday the last one being the 29th of June. I'm afraid that if she leaves, it's going to be emotional. She'll probably try to compromise, just like the last two times we tried to 'force' a decision. ("well I'll try to find some time to write a song suited for the band", "I'll try to read the guestbook 2 times a week", "maybe I could....")
I'm pretty sure that we won't play as good as we used to, but maybe these gigs are going to be really tough, because no-one wants to do these gigs anymore. And it's going to be hard to get everyone there on time knowing their songs etc. I will still do those gigs, that's 'professional' to me. You can't let those festivals down because your band is not well organised.
We'll probably change our bandname if she leaves. She is a big part of the band on stage, she's a character. If we keep our bandname, the replacement-singer is going to hear all the time that he/she is not as good as our former singer. Even if he/she is just as good. People associate our current singer with the band.
If we change our bandname, you could say that it doesn't matter if we screw up our last gigs. But that doesn't seem right to me.

Does anyone have any advice on how to deal with the gigs in the future?




Again, THANKS EVERYONE! This really helps (my band and my English ). I will let you know how this is going to end.
THANKS!!

[Flatbass]

I talked to the guitarist and drummer, explaining exactly what we should say this saturday. They both agreed that something needed to be done, and that we should talk to her.

This saturday, the female singer arrived 1 hour too late. We tried calling her, but she didn't answer her phone. She did have some vague reason for it and said that she 'maybe should have called'. We didn't care about this for the rest of the day.

The drummer helped me out, saying that he would start the conversation. After a few sentences, we could all say what we wanted to say.

The singer had been thinking about leaving the band for a long time. She also discussed it with her parents and music teachers. She said she would rather be a poor jazz singer, than a good rock singer and that she was aware that she always had different ideas about music and was 'slowing down' the band. She didn't think she was able to continue for another year.

She came to the conclusion that she would rather leave the band, and still do the gigs we had already planned. Maybe, she'll even try to arrange a 'goodbye-show'. We gave her a few weeks to think about leaving, but she was already sure she was going to leave.

It wasn't as tough as I thought it would be. It was as good as it could be, I guess. We didn't have to 'force' her decision. It was emotional, though. She cried and we all felt sad. We we're also relieved, because now we know were we stand.

The gig that night went okay. We all tried to make the best out of it. Still, we had a feeling that this was just something we had to do, before we can go on.
I think the next gig will be better, because we'll all have some time to think about this and we know what it feels like being on stage in this situation.

Next saturday. I think I'll arrange another meeting about some more practical stuff (money, 'copyrights', bandname...).

Then... there's the problem of finding a new singer. Most singers we hear about are just... they don't have any stage-experience, don't know what it's like to be in a band, can't sing when the monitors aren't loud enough (which is pretty much the case at all the gigs) etc etc.
Actually, I think about singing myself. I'm curious how I'll hold up against the other competetors. Hey... if I'm complaining so much about singers, I should back it up

I am looking forward to having a functioning band again.

[Der Bluten Kat]

either you or the guitarist could sing.. simple.. u can get more chicks that way too

[seventai]

well it isn't like you can't get together with her and make music ever again.

she has just been led down a different path than you guys. it happens. things change, bands split up and reform, life throws diffirent kinda **** at ya. that's just how it works.

congrats on heading onto to musical oppurtunites with new ppl.

[Akami]

Originally Posted by Flatbass

This saturday, we're going to rehearse again. This time, I want to know what the singer wants in this band. It's like there are 3 people pushing a car and another one is hitting the brake. Everyone feels like that band is going to end, we just don't know when.
This saturday, I would like the singer to make the decision.

That's because there are 3 pushing and one standing on the brake.
She's already made her decision; have her cake and eat it too. Or maybe it's that she thinks she's found a way to having her cake by eating yours.

You have one thing in common with her; you're both concerned about her.
Only problem is that she's the only one she's concerned about.

Time to move away from it.