Equal Pay Split, What Are Your Thoughts?

[bassbully]

Originally Posted by bluewine

In Milwaukee, a few of the better originals clubs have decent sound, however the cover venues don't.

Blue

Here its hit or miss. Some of the originals clubs have sound and soundmen but they are the bigger stages. Lot's of my Americana bands shows we provide PA like the bistro we play this weekend.
My rock band has no PA and we will only play clubs who provide it...like tonight.

[the yeti]

Originally Posted by bassbully

My rock band has no PA and we will only play clubs who provide it...like tonight.

is there a fee for the soundman/pa?

[fdeck]

Originally Posted by bluewine

We run a full pa subs, mains, stage monitors, 32 channels. It's still an even split.

Blue

For bar gigs? I'd say if they're bringing that much gear, then it's not your problem.

[bassbully]

Originally Posted by the yeti

is there a fee for the soundman/pa?

Most times yes...tonight ...don't know?

[zfunkman]

I was in a situation where my band played every weekend from $500 to $1000 a night. I managed the band and owned the sound system. We considered the sound system and the management of the band as an equal band member. I was paid twice what everyone else made and all the other band member were good with this and very thankful for all I did with getting gigs and owning a sound system. In a band that has a seperate manager and no sound system or a band owned sound system the band should all get equal pay.

[zfunkman]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

Don''t clubs and bars in the States have their own P.A systems? I just ask because although I do own a decent P.A, I only use it for private gigs. Bars always have their own.

In many cities in the US there are many bars that require the band to supply their own P.A.

[the yeti]

Originally Posted by bassbully

Most times yes...tonight ...don't know?

that's mostly how they do it here too... so here's a question: why is their system worth their fee but a system that happens to belong to a band mate worth nothing? not saying the going rate, but an amount that covers a fair portion of the cost of operation.

i've seen guys donate pa with the best of intentions become resentful of their obligation over time, it seems some up front money could be preventative.

that said, as long as the donor donates you'd be crazy not to reap the benefits.

[zfunkman]

Originally Posted by Jarrett

I guess if they person that owns the PA decides not to bring it to gigs anymore, that certainly could change the arrangement of things.

I owned the band P.A and actually did get paid extra for it. I eventually got sick and tired of being responsible for it. About 10 years ago when my band broke up. I sold off the entire thing. Smartest thing I ever did. Ever since I just play bass. Its awsome not dealing with owning a PA. I do, however, help with the P.A. when I can.

[socialleper]

I've had to pay to play or play for free more times than I got paid. Must be a nice problem to have.

[longfinger]

So weird to keep reading about the band's PA over and over again for playing in bars and clubs and the like. Around here, any venue that wants to have regular live music has some kind of PA worth using. The ones that don't are small enough for groups to play in without using a PA.

Goes back to that other thread of 'bar owner to band'... if a venue only has 4 walls and a roof, and some kegs of beer to sell, why would any public go there if a band or other act was not playing? And why would such acts play for cheap since the venue can't even offer them a stage and a PA? Weird.

A bassist has a bass and a amp/cabinet. A guitarist has a guitar and an amp/cabinet. A drummer has a drum kit, a keyboardist has a keyboard and an amp/cabinet. A vocalist has a mic, and wait for it... a PA with the desired effects.

Any room big enough to have everyone going through the PA, always seems to have one installed, at least around here. The exceptions are wedding/corporate events, in reception halls, which pay more and are not in the regular 'live music' event business. It makes sense there.

Equal pay makes sense and is fair sometimes. Non equal pay makes sense and is fair other times. It all depends.

IMHO, IME etc.

[ChrisB2]

Originally Posted by the yeti

i've seen guys donate pa with the best of intentions become resentful of their obligation over time, it seems some up front money could be preventative.

I totally agree. That's why I kinda wish our PA guy would take something. A) I think it's worth it, and B) I'm worried he will become resentful.

Makes me think of another question: there's been a lot of talk on here about guys saying if the PA owner gets an extra share, I'm not touching it. Then guys like me, where the PA owner doesn't get an extra share, who help load in and load out.

The question is: if your PA guy starts getting an extra share, do you stop helping load in and load out? Or do you still help? I think I would still help...

Originally Posted by the yeti

that said, as long as the donor donates you'd be crazy not to reap the benefits.

Yeah. I'm not crazy...

[phillybass101]

At no time when I play live is it small time even though I have played for small money. I didn't know a Band was a democracy LOL!!!! I believe you should get paid for what you do. If you are making things happen and working more than others in the band you should get more pay. I also like the idea of a band fund or even a band taking proceeeds to but something for a band. I quit a band because of the small money and they gig a lot of 'small time gigs'. Luckily I have a day job and I'm not chasin any stupid musical dreams at my age but playing for small money is no longer an option. I still see my old band from time to time and feel sorry for their bass player(s) as they are living off their playing. That measley pay being offered by the band leader helps pay for gas or an electric bill or something. He takes all the money (LOL) for his dry cleaning (outfits), volvo, AND DOES NOT WORK A DAY JOB. and not all of the gigs are small money gigs. If they play a good gig he only offers a $125. CB. All I can do is laugh about it as I'm no longer in it.

[two fingers]

Sorry, but no. There are many things that can factor into who gets what. Some are as follows.

1) PA - Who owns it? Who maintains it? Who transported it to the gig?

2) Booking - It takes a TON of time to build relationships with club owners. If you book a show, you should get a cut separate from the performance pay. Even if it is small.

3) Transportation - Did everyone ride to the gig in my RV, which also transported all the gear? Then I should get some gas money.

There are may other factors than can go into it. But if you just show up, slap your rig on stage, and start playing, you should NOT get the same amount of money as the guy who owns the PA, booked the show, and drove everyone to it.

Now, if the club is right in town, everyone knows the club owner, and there is provided PA, sure, split it evenly. That is rarely the case though.

[jive1]

Originally Posted by the yeti

that's mostly how they do it here too... so here's a question: why is their system worth their fee but a system that happens to belong to a band mate worth nothing? not saying the going rate, but an amount that covers a fair portion of the cost of operation.

That's my thoughts as well. You can pay a soundman $3-400, or give a fellow band member a $100. You can pay a club soundman $100 off the top, but balk at giving a guy in your band an extra $50. I don't get it. Personally, I'd rather keep the money in the family when possible.

i've seen guys donate pa with the best of intentions become resentful of their obligation over time, it seems some up front money could be preventative.

I've seen it myself too. I'd rather give them the money to keep them from being resentful. Even if they don't need the money, it's a tangible way of saying thanks for the extra work you do and investment you put into the band.

[jive1]

Originally Posted by ChrisB2

The question is: if your PA guy starts getting an extra share, do you stop helping load in and load out? Or do you still help? I think I would still help...

I would. It's not just the load-in at the gig, and setup. It's the cost of the equipment, maintenance, and the load-in and storage prior to the gig. Even when bandmates help me with load-in/load-out, I still have to unload to and from my house by myself.

If I hired a sound company, no. It's what I paid for and it's usually much more than I would pay a band member for. Depending on the gig, they may have even have a helper for that purpose.

[Chuck King]

The important thing is that nobody feels taken advantage of. As a general rule, I think that means that somebody who provides value (as in, a service or gear that would cost money to hire somebody or rent if not provided) should be compensated for it. Even if someone doesn't demand something in the initial all-for-one-one-for-all lovefest of an newly-organized band, it is inevitable that when the novelty wears off the extra work will start to chafe, so I would be in favor of making sure that people who do extra work or provide used-by-the-whole-band gear get something for it from the git-go.

That is not to say that it needs to be market rate for everything---in many cases, a little extra something for the effort will be enough to make that person feel appreciated and make it worth their time to do whatever. It might cost a couple hundred bucks to rent a PA and hire a sound man---if a band member provides the PA and can run it from the stage, tossing that person an extra $50 or an extra share is a bargain for the band, but only the most mercenary person would still feel cheated under those circumstances. Of course, somebody still might decide they don't want to deal with the aggravation, but that's a different issue.

On the other hand, there are plenty of circumstances where other factors can outweigh monetary concerns. A very common scenario is where a band leader has a vision for a band and so absorbs various costs or takes on extra work for no compensation because its part of what needs to be done to realize that vision. Also, at low levels (Blue's $400 bar gig is in that category) a lot of times the thankless uncompensated work or stuff provided is viewed as an investment in building the band, and while somebody who's doing a lot of extra stuff may not demand a bigger cut of the relatively small paycheck, when/if the band gets to the level of doing bigger, more lucrative gigs, there may be a different analysis.

Then, you may have the situation we have in my main band, where everybody is doing something to advance the band, and everybody feels that contributions are close enough to equivalent that an equal spit of net profits is reasonable. For instance: I own our PA, but the other guys tend to haul it and set it up (they have the bigger vehicles, and one of them is a professional sound guy). The lead singer owns our light system and programs that and backing tracks, and the drummer handles all our web stuff and some of the booking. In the grand scheme of things, I'm sure you could figure that contributions are not precisely equal, but I'm satisfied that the other guys are contributing enough that I don't mind providing the PA without getting extra money for it. If they were all just "show up, play, go home" types, I would feel differently.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by the yeti

that's mostly how they do it here too... so here's a question: why is their system worth their fee but a system that happens to belong to a band mate worth nothing? not saying the going rate, but an amount that covers a fair portion of the cost of operation.

i've seen guys donate pa with the best of intentions become resentful of their obligation over time, it seems some up front money could be preventative.

that said, as long as the donor donates you'd be crazy not to reap the benefits.

Talkbass seems to divide this PA issue into two fairly extreme camps. Either 1. a band member owns the PA, schleps it all himself, sets it up and tears it all up and down himself, and pays for all the repairs himself, or 2. the band has to rent it from a shop and pay $$$ for it on any given gig.

The issue here is that there's often a grey area that people never seem to acknowledge. Like I mentioned earlier with my group, my singer has a PA but it essentially acts as his own amp. Since the rest of us have to bring our own rigs and kits, it makes zero sense to pay him extra just for doing as much work as the rest of us*.

Now the next question is, what if he brought monitors, subs, etc... instead of just two mains for the PA and we ran everyone through it? *Even then I would be hesitant to pay him because my whole band always helps load it in, set it up, tune it to the room (I do this because I'm the only one who actually knows how), tear it down, and load it out.

In other words, the band is already doing most of the actual labor of owning the PA. The guy providing, at least in my singer's case, isn't really doing all that much work on any given night (I know you guys might be thinking of something else he has to do at the very beginning of the night and very end with the PA, but no, he doesn't do those things ). If he were to ask for anything other than help with repair costs on gear I'd probably laugh at him considering how much work he realistically does with the PA. It's not like he's showing up or staying longer at gigs than anyone else with this arrangement. In fact, on gigs where the venue provides PA support all he has to bring is his synth and synth stand. Even on our most stripped down gigs I still have to carry WAY more gear than that and I don't get paid more.

A few other TB'ers have also hinted at the costs associated with owning a PA as means to being compensated as it's a huge cost upfront. I wrote this next bit of my post several days ago in response to another post in this thread but held off on it as it seemed like bragging more than anything else, but I think something like it needs to be said because it negates that argument pretty well:

"I don't know, though. People say the investment in the PA is so great that the person who bought it should be compensated for it, and I guess if they play another instrument and, as such, have another rig I could understand that. However, if you calculate how much my bass rig and basses cost you're looking at a number that makes a 6k PA somehow seem reasonable

Just to give an example, here are the costs of the components of my gear if I had bought everything new (some things I did, some things I didn't, which I think would be similar to someone buying a PA). Regardless, these are the costs associated with the gear I use to gig:

Aguilar DB751 - $2,200
Genz Benz Neox212t (x2) - $1,600
EBMM StingRay - $1,400
Modulus Quantum 5 - $4,500
Effects Pedals - $2,000

These are the basics of my rig and don't even factor in the costs of cases, rack equipment, cables, wireless system, tuners, metronomes, stands, microphones, etc... It also doesn't include my other amps and basses, but just the ones I'd use on a gig. If you factor the rest of the stuff in you're easily looking at an additional $5,000+ worth of gear. Of course, I bought A LOT of my stuff used, so you could effectively cut those numbers in half for a more realistic view of what I've spent, but, then again, any smart person buying a PA would look to buy their stuff used, too.

I just don't see how the cost of something should play a factor in how big of a cut someone gets, because if this were the case I'd be making the most in my band by a large margin. If everyone helps schlep and take care of the PA then I don't see the need for a greater cut, although I could be sold on the idea of maintenance costs being paid off by the full band in the question."

The argument here is that we all have costs associated with playing music ourselves. Now could I get away with playing a gig with a Squier Affinity and an Ampeg 15in combo amp? Sure, but my band wouldn't let me because they want only the best gear present on any given gig. Regardless, I don't buy the, "I paid 6k for the PA so I should make my money back on it off of the band." Unless you're schlepping it and setting it all up yourself I wouldn't see the benefit, and even then you'd need to convince me that we need 'the big PA' and not some mains. I've played several $1,000 gigs using no more than mains for PA support, so the need for everything else has never seemed great to me, especially if it means I'll be making less money at the end of the day.

[two fingers]

I would be right there with you on a few grand PA. However, a 6 grand PA is going to sound like crap in most cases. In my view, you have to get up to the 20K range to be pro gear. However, I really don't see how you can argue that buying a PA and keeping up with all the chords, cases, amps, racks, stands, etc. compares to buying and maintaining your bass rig. First of all, I doubt your bass rig takes a trailer or box truck to haul. But without going too far into the differences, I can't disagree with your more on the cost, upkeep, transportation, and overall headache of owning a PA compared to a bass rig. There's just no real comparison. I own both, so please don't tell me what I do or don't know. A bass rig is a piece of cake. And if you don't like my getting a cut for owning/transporting/maintaining an entire PA, then I will take my PA elsewhere.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by two fingers

I would be right there with you on a few grand PA. However, a 6 grand PA is going to sound like crap in most cases. In my view, you have to get up to the 20K range to be pro gear. However, I really don't see how you can argue that buying a PA and keeping up with all the chords, cases, amps, racks, stands, etc. compares to buying and maintaining your bass rig. First of all, I doubt your bass rig takes a trailer or box truck to haul. But without going too far into the differences, I can't disagree with your more on the cost, upkeep, transportation, and overall headache of owning a PA compared to a bass rig. There's just no real comparison. I own both, so please don't tell me what I do or don't know. A bass rig is a piece of cake. And if you don't like my getting a cut for owning/transporting/maintaining an entire PA, then I will take my PA elsewhere.

But again, if the rest of the band is doing all the load in, load out, setup, and sound running then how much work is the owner realistically doing?

Again, all this comes down to individual circumstances. Your post has a bit of hot air coming from it which I can surely understand if you've been taken advantage of in the past with your PA, but you have to remember that my circumstances are different. We all help schlep, we all would help with repair costs, we all help setup, I run the sound, etc... And in my neck of the woods only the smallest of small bars have zero PA support. All the major music hot spots already have in house PAs, so our need to worry about it is pretty moot. But even still, I've done several $1,000+ gigs with no more support than mains. If you were in my band and got an attitude about not being paid to provide your mains I would tell you to take a walk. In my position, I really wouldn't need you to get by.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by two fingers

I would be right there with you on a few grand PA. However, a 6 grand PA is going to sound like crap in most cases. In my view, you have to get up to the 20K range to be pro gear. However, I really don't see how you can argue that buying a PA and keeping up with all the chords, cases, amps, racks, stands, etc. compares to buying and maintaining your bass rig. First of all, I doubt your bass rig takes a trailer or box truck to haul. But without going too far into the differences, I can't disagree with your more on the cost, upkeep, transportation, and overall headache of owning a PA compared to a bass rig. There's just no real comparison. I own both, so please don't tell me what I do or don't know. A bass rig is a piece of cake. And if you don't like my getting a cut for owning/transporting/maintaining an entire PA, then I will take my PA elsewhere.

Since this thread is about $400.00 bar gigs, why would and what would a band playing at that level be doing with a 20k pa?

Blue