Equal Pay Split, What Are Your Thoughts?

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by Jarrett

The weird thing I find about being a bass player is that others don't fully understand the role of the bass in groups. Maybe they haven't experienced what a seasoned, knowledgeable player brings to a group or maybe they just can't perceive why it sounds better when one bass player plays over another, but the end result is they don't understand the role/function of a good bass player in a group.

I think this is where the under value stuff comes from. It's easy to see what a flashy guitar player brings, or an attractive singer with good stage presence, even a drummer that does cool fills; but with a bass player its hard to perceive their worth even when they are playing really well for the non educated.

This goes back to that thread I started about bass playing possibly being a dying art. There was a time everyone wanted a Flea or a Chuck Rainey or a John Paul Jones, but nowadays who does?

A good bass player in the right band, throwing down tasteful fills and riffs that cut through the mix placed properly in the whole audio spectrum wearing flashy threads ( not ridiculous ) standing up front can stand out and be noticed.

I like to be noticed and I want to stand out.

I can't say I'm completely there but I'm trying. And I will say it's harder for us to stand out.

Blue

[BluesMan845]

Originally Posted by bluewine

This thread is for those of you in bar bands or joining bar bands doing traditional 4 hour shows in the $400.00- $500.00 fee range.

What is your take on pay?

My position regardless of the circumstance is you should get an equal cut.

Blue

All the bands I have played with we're equal share when it came time to be paid at the end of the night. We always shared the workload and equipment though. If someone looked like they were slacking ( vocalists, ahem ) we would let that person know they needed to take a more active role in setup, breakdown and transportation of gear. It's only a $400-500/night bar band and at that level I don't believe there's any room for egos that deserve a larger cut. Just people that maybe deserve to be shown the door if they fell they are above equal workload.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by BluesMan845

All the bands I have played with we're equal share when it came time to be paid at the end of the night. We always shared the workload and equipment though. If someone looked like they were slacking ( vocalists, ahem ) we would let that person know they needed to take a more active role in setup, breakdown and transportation of gear. It's only a $400-500/night bar band and at that level I don't believe there's any room for egos that deserve a larger cut. Just people that maybe deserve to be shown the door if they fell they are above equal workload.

Nice!

Seems like only some agree that $400.00 isn't enough money to split hairs over.

It's small time bar/ club business and for those of us in it we get the satisfaction of saying "we're a $100.00 per man band" when you're a 4 piece.


Blue

[modulusman]

Originally Posted by bluewine

Nice!

Seems like only some agree that $400.00 isn't enough money to split hairs over.

It's small time bar/ club business and for those of us in it we get the satisfaction of saying "we're a $100.00 per man band" when you're a 4 piece.


Blue

Hey whatever floats your boat.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by modulusman

Hey whatever floats your boat.

Well, I wish I was on one of those Austin City PBS shows or Letterman. For now these little biker bar shows will have to do.

Ticks me off a little one of my good friends from Jersey I grew up playing with is up for a Grammy this year.

Blue

[bassbully]

Originally Posted by ChrisB2

You're using a very isolated and rare example to make a point against another point which was very broad-based. Not really relevant.

Look back to Bassbully's example of the linebacker; listen, whether you like it or not, there ARE different levels of "perceived value" within MOST bands. I recognize that; I know that our singer and lead guitarists... as well as our overall sound which I'm part of... are what get us repeat bookings, not my amazing reinterpretation of the Mustang Sally bassline. I don't see it as putting myself down, it's just recognizing the facts of life... I in no way put myself down; I'm a very talented, intelligent self-made entrepreneur who also plays in bands, and my role in the band is pretty easy and not usually noticed much by others. Not putting myself down-- recognizing reality.

No offense but... the rest of your post sounds like that feel-good self-esteem crap they started feeding the kids 20-or-so years ago... I'm an old guy who was raised to believe what I consider to be a more realistic worldview and was never deceived into believing a linebacker can transform himself into a quarterback just by squeezing his eyes shut and wishing hard enough....

Like a good quarterback needs a good linebacker, my band needs a bass player. I get equal pay and equal standing in the "democracy." But I ain't the quarterback.

Glad someone got it. Sure I was being somewhat sarcastic but not to much.

We bass players are rare breed lets face it how many don't want to be the flash of the band, the look the image the star? Very few bassists are and even Flea as good as he is is not the face of RHCP IMO.

Geddy is great but Alex steals the show to me. Lead guitarists and singers get the chicks and the doe in allot of bands. This is why the bassist for years were in the back row by the drummer.

Its not a knock but the bassist like drummer are the linemen not the Quarterbacks..sorry. I'm a bassist and I just accept it. I think there are nights I play great and our multi- strings player and lead singer get all the praise..it's all good.

[bassbully]

Originally Posted by bluewine

A good bass player in the right band, throwing down tasteful fills and riffs that cut through the mix placed properly in the whole audio spectrum wearing flashy threads ( not ridiculous ) standing up front can stand out and be noticed.

I like to be noticed and I want to stand out.

I can't say I'm completely there but I'm trying. And I will say it's harder for us to stand out.

Blue

I agree and have seen videos of your band. The woman/guitarist in your group gets the attention and always will..sorry.

[bassplyr61]

In my band I booked the gigs, haul the PA and do all of the marketing. We still split the money evenly at the $400-500 mark. If the tips are light on a particular night I just keep those, otherwise we split them too. As the band continues to get more private gigs (ie higher paying), I will probably take a little bit more off the top.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by ChrisB2

You're using a very isolated and rare example to make a point against another point which was very broad-based. Not really relevant.

Look back to Bassbully's example of the linebacker; listen, whether you like it or not, there ARE different levels of "perceived value" within MOST bands. I recognize that; I know that our singer and lead guitarists... as well as our overall sound which I'm part of... are what get us repeat bookings, not my amazing reinterpretation of the Mustang Sally bassline. I don't see it as putting myself down, it's just recognizing the facts of life... I in no way put myself down; I'm a very talented, intelligent self-made entrepreneur who also plays in bands, and my role in the band is pretty easy and not usually noticed much by others. Not putting myself down-- recognizing reality.

No offense but... the rest of your post sounds like that feel-good self-esteem crap they started feeding the kids 20-or-so years ago... I'm an old guy who was raised to believe what I consider to be a more realistic worldview and was never deceived into believing a linebacker can transform himself into a quarterback just by squeezing his eyes shut and wishing hard enough....

Like a good quarterback needs a good linebacker, my band needs a bass player. I get equal pay and equal standing in the "democracy." But I ain't the quarterback.

I kind of hinted at this when I gave that example about my guitarist playing by himself vs when he's playing with me and my drummer. A bassist's inherent worth comes from his or her ability to groove and get people moving around. IME, I know when I'm having a good night or a bad one just by how active the audience is moving around when my band plays. And it must be coming from myself and my drummer because people stop moving really quickly once the rhythm section stops, regardless of what our singer or our guitarist is doing.

Your singer/guitarist/etc might be 'the talent' that everyone is coming to see, but how many people would be on the floor dancing if they were up there singing solo? Heck, even add in a guitar and see how much more than head nods or bodies swaying back and forth that you'll get. At least in the context of a bar band looking to get good paying gigs, you have to play music that gets people moving, and that only happens when you're playing danceable music with a great supporting rhythm section.

I've seen enough bands to know that if the rhythm section sucks then no one is going to come back to see a band multiple times regardless of how good a singer or guitarist might be. It just doesn't happen because the music isn't danceable when the tunes don't groove, and if the music isn't danceable then what's the point from a bar patrons perspective? By comparison, I've seen some decent at best singers and guitarists in bands with killer rhythm sections pack floors. These bands get asked back much more often than the prior ones because they're the ones people enjoy seeing and getting their buzz to.

Look at it like this, are people more impressed by the band that has a guitarist who can play every Vai, Van Halen, Gilbert, and Satch lick in the book or the band who constantly lays down fat, funky grooves that the ladies can shake their tail feathers to? Who do you think the majority of people will want to see multiple times? We have a local guitar virtuoso, Andy Wood, here in Knox. At first his band was doing really well in the bar scene, but after a few months of playing around he's now barely packing floors because no one cares how flashy he can play. By comparison, the marginally above average funk group that comes through the same bars has been packing houses every night they play for the past 3 years. Coincidence? Yeah right. That's the actual reality, regardless of whether people really know it or not.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by bassbully

Glad someone got it. Sure I was being somewhat sarcastic but not to much.

We bass players are rare breed lets face it how many don't want to be the flash of the band, the look the image the star? Very few bassists are and even Flea as good as he is is not the face of RHCP IMO.

Geddy is great but Alex steals the show to me. Lead guitarists and singers get the chicks and the doe in allot of bands. This is why the bassist for years were in the back row by the drummer.

Its not a knock but the bassist like drummer are the linemen not the Quarterbacks..sorry. I'm a bassist and I just accept it. I think there are nights I play great and our multi- strings player and lead singer get all the praise..it's all good.

No, I definitely get it. Rhythm section players are rarely the face of a band, but that doesn't diminish their worth. Exceptional guitar players are a dime a doze. Exceptional drummers and bassists, not so much.

[ChrisB2]

Jmatt, glad you didn't take too much offense to what I wrote, I like you and didn't want to piss you off!

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

I kind of hinted at this when I gave that example about my guitarist playing by himself vs when he's playing with me and my drummer. A bassist's inherent worth comes from his or her ability to groove and get people moving around. IME, I know when I'm having a good night or a bad one just by how active the audience is moving around when my band plays. And it must be coming from myself and my drummer because people stop moving really quickly once the rhythm section stops, regardless of what our singer or our guitarist is doing.

Your singer/guitarist/etc might be 'the talent' that everyone is coming to see, but how many people would be on the floor dancing if they were up there singing solo? Heck, even add in a guitar and see how much more than head nods or bodies swaying back and forth that you'll get. At least in the context of a bar band looking to get good paying gigs, you have to play music that gets people moving, and that only happens when you're playing danceable music with a great supporting rhythm section.

I've seen enough bands to know that if the rhythm section sucks then no one is going to come back to see a band multiple times regardless of how good a singer or guitarist might be. It just doesn't happen because the music isn't danceable when the tunes don't groove, and if the music isn't danceable then what's the point from a bar patrons perspective? By comparison, I've seen some decent at best singers and guitarists in bands with killer rhythm sections pack floors. These bands get asked back much more often than the prior ones because they're the ones people enjoy seeing and getting their buzz to.

Look at it like this, are people more impressed by the band that has a guitarist who can play every Vai, Van Halen, Gilbert, and Satch lick in the book or the band who constantly lays down fat, funky grooves that the ladies can shake their tail feathers to? Who do you think the majority of people will want to see multiple times? We have a local guitar virtuoso, Andy Wood, here in Knox. At first his band was doing really well in the bar scene, but after a few months of playing around he's now barely packing floors because no one cares how flashy he can play. By comparison, the marginally above average funk group that comes through the same bars has been packing houses every night they play for the past 3 years. Coincidence? Yeah right. That's the actual reality, regardless of whether people really know it or not.

I totally agree. I don't think we're disagreeing about the importance of bass in music. I love bass! I'm a bass player, and not one who switched to bass from guitar to get gigs. I play because I simply love bass. Without it, music is flat, empty, and boring. Plus the instrument is fun to play, and not that hard to play well enough to succeed in a cover band, although it's true that "good" bass playing is not as easy as people think!

Your argument could be used to say "Linebackers are just as important as quarterbacks" which in a way is true, but in another way is not true. As you say, a band can't sound good without bass, and a quarterback cannot win a game without linebackers. But the QB also gets more attention, more money, and more girls. That's reality. And the linebacker who recognizes that is not automatically putting himself down.

I'm humbled by the lead guitarist in my band... he's simply amazing. There's no way I could ever do what he can do. One advantage of aging is learning your limitations, and, if you're smart, accepting them and living strong within them. I know I simply don't have the dexterity in my fingers to play what he can play. But I just admire it and play along, playing well, playing better than a lot of other bass players (IMHO haha). I don't put myself down-- I accept his talent and ability, and use my own for its purpose as you so eloquently described above. Likewise, our singer just happens to be blessed with an amazing voice. He never worked at it, it's just there. I do not have such a voice. I can sing, but my tone and timbre just are not as pleasant as his. Is that putting myself down or admitting reality? Some people have been told all their lives that they are awesome singers, then they audition on TV shows, embarrass themselves, and wonder why they didn't win. I have no such delusions; I know I can carry a tune, and can sing some decent harmonies, and can add to our sound, but I would never cut it as a lead singer. It just ain't in the cards man! But you're right, no one would dance to him singing alone. I just don't agree that to recognize these facts is putting myself down........

[jive1]

Originally Posted by ChrisB2

Your argument could be used to say "Linebackers are just as important as quarterbacks" which in a way is true, but in another way is not true. As you say, a band can't sound good without bass, and a quarterback cannot win a game without linebackers. But the QB also gets more attention, more money, and more girls. That's reality. And the linebacker who recognizes that is not automatically putting himself down.

Sorry, but I'm a total football nut. I think you mean offensive lineman, not linebacker. Offensive linemen are the ones who block for the QB. Linebackers play on defense, and often the middle linebacker is the QB of the defense. It's considered a skill position. But I get your analogy.

An interesting thing is that the center on the offensive line is the one who makes the line calls. They point out the possible pass rushers to make sure that blockers are assigned to them. It's not uncommon to have a center be a team captain, even though they are an offensive lineman. Similar to how you have band leaders, music directors, and soundmen who play bass as well. Even though they may be in a "grunt" position, their leadership is still important. Also, an effective left tackle that protects the QBs blindside is a franchise player. Their grunt work is crucial to the team making plays.

Like football, a functioning band has everyone doing some type of grunt work. Everyone needs to block on a play, regardless of who is running with the ball. That may even include the QB.

[bassbully]

Yeah not putting us bass players down here but I just know my role and accept it. I'm in front in both my bands and in my main band I do backing vocals and even chat with the crowd while onstage.
Allot of time I still feel nobody notices me or even know I play in the band and it's hard to believe if you knew me since I can come across large and in charge.

I have always been drawn to the Bass role in bands and the sound but the role is not really where I want to be. I always wanted to be the lead guitarist ...yea I said it.

I started out as a guitarist and never was a good lead player but can play. Today I play allot of guitar more than bass when outside my bands role and still want to be that guy inside. Bass fits me well thou and is really my true instrument in a band. I watch our multi strings player (Plays 5 instruments during a show) and am just floored with his playing and if the band said he needed payed more for those skills ..what could I really say?

[bassbully]

Originally Posted by jive1

Sorry, but I'm a total football nut. I think you mean offensive lineman, not linebacker. Offensive linemen are the ones who block for the QB. Linebackers play on defense, and often the middle linebacker is the QB of the defense. It's considered a skill position. But I get your analogy.

An interesting thing is that the center on the offensive line is the one who makes the line calls. They point out the possible pass rushers to make sure that blockers are assigned to them. It's not uncommon to have a center be a team captain, even though they are an offensive lineman. Similar to how you have band leaders, music directors, and soundmen who play bass as well. Even though they may be in a "grunt" position, their leadership is still important. Also, an effective left tackle that protects the QBs blindside is a franchise player. Their grunt work is crucial to the team making plays.

Like football, a functioning band has everyone doing some type of grunt work. Everyone needs to block on a play, regardless of who is running with the ball. That may even include the QB.

As always Jive good quote. Maybe the bass players role is equal to the Punter now?



J/K

[davidjackson]

I think you know when it feels fair and when it doesn't.

In my band we all get an equal split of the money. Me and the guitarist do most of the heavy lifting and load in/load out etc. Having said that the keyboard player and singer (both female) do more than me and him in booking gigs arranging photographs, sorting websites etc. The drummer does less additional jobs but he has a lot further to travel to the areas we tend to play so has higher fuel costs.

All in all I think we all feel that we contribute in equal albeit very different ways.

[MarkMgibson]

These American football analogies are doing my head in! Never could understand that game, but then I don't suppose many Americans understand Cricket either.

So, a great guitarist is like a very quick swing bowler, whereas a bass player might be considered more like a leg spinner... just kidding. Still, a good Yorker is a good Yorker, no matter who bowls it.

[bassbully]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

These American football analogies are doing my head in! Never could understand that game, but then I don't suppose many Americans understand Cricket either.

So, a great guitarist is like a very quick swing bowler, whereas a bass player might be considered more like a leg spinner... just kidding. Still, a good Yorker is a good Yorker, no matter who bowls it.

Cricket? I squashed a few in my years..but a sport?

[the yeti]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

These American football analogies are doing my head in! Never could understand that game, but then I don't suppose many Americans understand Cricket either.

So, a great guitarist is like a very quick swing bowler, whereas a bass player might be considered more like a leg spinner... just kidding. Still, a good Yorker is a good Yorker, no matter who bowls it.

"that's a wicked googly?"

don't worry, the game of football is being eroded every day... you won't have issues w/not understanding it much longer.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by bassbully

As always Jive good quote. Maybe the bass players role is equal to the Punter now?



J/K

Well, as you know I am looking to work my way up to quarterback status.

BlueAttachment 311302

[ChrisB2]

Originally Posted by jive1

Sorry, but I'm a total football nut. I think you mean offensive lineman, not linebacker. Offensive linemen are the ones who block for the QB. Linebackers play on defense, and often the middle linebacker is the QB of the defense. It's considered a skill position. But I get your analogy.

An interesting thing is that the center on the offensive line is the one who makes the line calls. They point out the possible pass rushers to make sure that blockers are assigned to them. It's not uncommon to have a center be a team captain, even though they are an offensive lineman. Similar to how you have band leaders, music directors, and soundmen who play bass as well. Even though they may be in a "grunt" position, their leadership is still important. Also, an effective left tackle that protects the QBs blindside is a franchise player. Their grunt work is crucial to the team making plays.

Like football, a functioning band has everyone doing some type of grunt work. Everyone needs to block on a play, regardless of who is running with the ball. That may even include the QB.

I think that was a "+1"...?

Actually, while I admit my ignorance of the minute details of the game, I still believe a quarterback cannot win games without linebackers, "regardless of your nitpicking my analogy!"

Besides, I was merely reusing Bassbully's fine point about us being like "linebackers" and adding "quarterback" to the idea to enlarge the point in a (hopefully) non-boring (read: too much non-bass detail!) way... I didn't actually state that a linebacker plays on the field with a quarterback.



mkay?