Excuses

[thepontif]

And to be clear, you don't have to be a world traveling musician Or have a resume like mine to get calls that you don't want.

[thepontif]

Originally Posted by Pacman

You really seem to be missing a crucial point here. Turning down a gig because you've got other commitments is never a reputation killer. (Although, you sometimes run the risk of the "don't call him - he's always booked" syndrome. Usually fixed by putting the word out that you're looking for gigs.)

Yes. In fact, properly handled, being unavailable can HELP you reputation, as it shows you are in demand.

[sobie18]

I don't see an issue with turning down the gig. Lord knows the USAF has caused me to turn down many opportunities, gigs, and bands over these last thousand years...However, my phone still rings.

If I got a call to cover a gig for Mike Pope, I'd be overwhelmed and blown away by the opportunity.

[audioglenn]

Well, the first thing is it's really none of the BL business what you have to do. Not that I would say that...but with that in mind, I would tell him whatever you want to tell him. I think many people ask that question without really thinking. Just sincerely thank him for thinking of you and that you're unavailable to play.

[thepontif]

Originally Posted by audioglenn

Well, the first thing is it's really none of the BL business what you have to do. Not that I would say that...but with that in mind, I would tell him whatever you want to tell him. I think many people ask that question without really thinking. Just sincerely thank him for thinking of you and that you're unavailable to play.

I like the sincerely thank him part. Because in the end that is the most important thing. You want to avoid making him feel like he's unimportant.

[thepontif]

Like just because I don't want to take the gig does not mean I'm not appreciative of the call.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

(sorry for coming in late on this one)

Originally Posted by thepontif

A bandleader calls you for a gig a month away. You look at your calendar and see that you will be coming home from a family vacation two days before. You really don't want to do the gig. So you simply say, sorry I'm busy and I can't do it. Then the bandleader asks you what you have going on that night. Are you honest and simply say, I just don't feel like playing that night, or do you make up a story?

I tell him that I have a family commitment that night and let that be that. Those who know my family situation will respect that, those who don't *should* respect it anyway. If the person keeps being nosey and asks for details about what my family commitment is and I feel that he's trying to browbeat me into backing out of that to take his gig, I'll make up a story about my family commitment ("I promised my wife/son I'd...."), but only because it's kinder to everyone than saying "none of your business, ************".

There are a couple of guys in town who use this tactic. One of them I don't play with any more because he's as manipulative on the gig as he is trying to book it. The other used to do this a lot, then we made our peace about it. But the bottom line is that if you have a family - especially if you have kids - and you want to spend time with them, you don't need an excuse not to take a gig. Time with family is often the most rare and valuable time any of us have, and to have to explain that to someone is impossible. I probably lose a number of gigs for being a "family man", but I'm OK with that, considering the alternative.

Originally Posted by Pacman

You really seem to be missing a crucial point here. Turning down a gig and backing out of a gig are two completely different things. Turning down a gig because you've got other commitments is never a reputation killer. (Although, you sometimes run the risk of the "don't call him - he's always booked" syndrome. Usually fixed by putting the word out that you're looking for gigs.)

Backing out of a gig can hurt you, and bad.

This. ^^^^^^

[Phil Smith]

Originally Posted by thepontif

And to be clear, you don't have to be a world traveling musician Or have a resume like mine to get calls that you don't want.

Ain't that the truth!

[thepontif]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

I know you think your stance makes 100% sense (and it does from your POV), but from others like myself (and especially to those who don't know you) it actually comes off as naive, if not even slightly inane.

I can appreciate that you are an intelligent person and you have the right to assert whatever opinion you have here on the board. But calling a seasoned musician naïve or in Inane is honestly just disrespectful. Just let me remind you that I have been in your shoes and I have seen the business from your perspective before. I do not believe the reverse is true. So before you start insinuating that I somehow have a warped perspective, maybe you should give a thought to the notion that things aren't really that much different when you're in a position like I am compared to a position like you. Everyone struggles, everybody needs money, very few people are making more money than they need to survive as full-time musicians. And that is true on every level. I brought up a valid and very relevant real-world question, and a couple of you just freaked out and went off the deep end.

[Phil Smith]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

The issue is that you're trying to paint this to be a black or white sort of thing. Perhaps in your case it is, but for (I dare say) most working musicians it's not. I can't turn down subbing gigs unless I have a really good excuse because if I become known as a guy who is unreliable then I'm going to stop getting calls. For a guy like me who isn't a big name, but who still makes 100% of his income from gigging, that's a big deal because it directly affects my ability to eat and pay rent.

Perhaps something you should realize is that most members of this forum don't have a resume that even comes close to mimicking your own. You have a name that lends credibility to yourself and any decision you might make in relation to music, whereas a guy like me is still working on building that resume just to get my name on the radar. I know you think your stance makes 100% sense (and it does from your POV), but from others like myself (and especially to those who don't know you) it actually comes off as naive, if not even slightly inane.

To sum it up, neither of you are wrong, but neither of you are completely right, either. Like most things in life, it simply comes down to your experiences and your personal situation. When it comes to discussing points on the internet it's important to remember that there are often two ways to skin a cat.

What blows your argument here clearly out of the water is a situation where you can't sub, because you have another gig, won't be around because you have another gig, won't be around because you're on vacation, etc, etc. You can't say yes to something you can't do. You always have the option to say yes OR no to something that you can do and for 99% of the people calling you what you can't do and what you don't want to do has the same effect, you're not doing that gig and the BL is calling the next possibility.

[RustyAxe]

Originally Posted by thepontif

Yes. In fact, properly handled, being unavailable can HELP you reputation, as it shows you are in demand.

Quite right ... although not a strategy I'd employ intentionally. I sub and play one-off gigs regularly, as well as being the regular bass player for a working (4-6 gigs/month) country band, and doing sporadic gigs and recording sessions with two singer/songwriters. The band comes first, and the vast majority of our gigs are booked w-a-y in advance (most of the year is booked by January). The remainder are usually booked at least four weeks in advance. Those go right on my calendar, and any fill-in requests that conflict must be turned down. But ... the band leader is also flexible so that if there's an "important" gig I want to play at he'll find a sub for me for that night. All the band members have multiple things going, eg, the keyboardist is a choral director for a large urban high school, and takes time out from the band to do what he needs to do.

The singer/songwriters both know my situation with the band, and they book early, usually asking if I'm available for their gig, and often booking their gigs around MY schedule (how accommodating is that?!). Beyond that, there's there's the one-off calls, and I fit 'em in where I can.

It's been working for me for years ... must be a fluke, because I'm obviously doing it wrong ...

[DWBass]

Scheduled family commitment. He doesn't get more than that. It's none of his business.

[MatticusMania]

Originally Posted by Phil Smith

For those folks that are hung up on the lying part, what's you're answer when your wife or your girlfriend asks you: "Do I look fat in these jeans?"

Well, since my girlfriend is not fat, I tell her that those jeans make her ass look fat.
She'll take it as a compliment, because she knows I like a fat ass.

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by thepontif

A bandleader calls you for a gig a month away. You look at your calendar and see that you will be coming home from a family vacation two days before. You really don't want to do the gig. So you simply say, sorry I'm busy and I can't do it. Then the bandleader asks you what you have going on that night. Are you honest and simply say, I just don't feel like playing that night, or do you make up a story?

Neither one. It's none of the bandleader's business what I have going on that night. All he needs to know is that I'm unavailable. I'm not obligated to provide him with any explanations.

If he doesn't want to accept my response and continues to press the issue, I will politely but firmly state that I appreciate the offer, then restate that I'm unavailable for that date. I will then excuse myself and get off the phone. The end.

MM

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by thepontif

I can appreciate that you are an intelligent person and you have the right to assert whatever opinion you have here on the board. But calling a seasoned musician naïve or in Inane is honestly just disrespectful. Just let me remind you that I have been in your shoes and I have seen the business from your perspective before. I do not believe the reverse is true. So before you start insinuating that I somehow have a warped perspective, maybe you should give a thought to the notion that things aren't really that much different when you're in a position like I am compared to a position like you. Everyone struggles, everybody needs money, very few people are making more money than they need to survive as full-time musicians. And that is true on every level. I brought up a valid and very relevant real-world question, and a couple of you just freaked out and went off the deep end.

Note the bold and underlined bits:

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

...To be fair, you aren't wrong. If you are getting more subbing offers than you can possibly swing, and if playing or not playing a gig won't put you on the street, then you have every reason to decide not to play if you don't want to.

That said, there are a lot of other guys out there who depend on each and every gig because they can't always be certain when and where the next one will be coming from. They need to make every dollar they can, while they can, because their source of gigs isn't as stable as yours seems to be. That, and they need to take these gigs so that they're known as reliable, go-to guys who can be counted on. Them saying no to a gig will seemingly affect them much more than saying no would affect you.

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

...Perhaps something you should realize is that most members of this forum don't have a resume that even comes close to mimicking your own. You have a name that lends credibility to yourself and any decision you might make in relation to music, whereas a guy like me is still working on building that resume just to get my name on the radar. I know you think your stance makes 100% sense (and it does from your POV), but from others like myself (and especially to those who don't know you) it can actually come off as naive, if not even slightly inane.

To sum it up, neither of you are wrong, but neither of you are completely right, either. Like most things in life, it simply comes down to your experiences and your personal situation. When it comes to discussing points on the internet it's important to remember that there are often two ways to skin a cat.

I never said you had a warped perspective or that your argument was wrong. In fact, I clearly said a couple times that you're right. What I also said was that the counter argument (that you think is wrong) isn't wrong, either. It's simply a different opinion that has its own merits under certain circumstances, just like yours has its own merits under differing circumstances. It all depends on (like I've said) your perspective. Likewise, I never called you naive or inane; I simply said your POV could be seen that way by those who have this differing perspective. That's it.

Originally Posted by Phil Smith

What blows your argument here clearly out of the water is a situation where you can't sub, because you have another gig, won't be around because you have another gig, won't be around because you're on vacation, etc, etc. You can't say yes to something you can't do. You always have the option to say yes OR no to something that you can do and for 99% of the people calling you what you can't do and what you don't want to do has the same effect, you're not doing that gig and the BL is calling the next possibility.

Not really. Turning down a gig because you have another gig is a legitimate excuse that no reasonable BL would bat an eye to. However, I personally know that if I made an offer to a player who I respected and he turned me down (only for me to later find out his real excuse was to sit at home and watch TV, after he had already been off for several days on vacation) I'd take it as an insult and that he didn't appreciate my gig offers. I'd simply X him off my list and move the next guy in line right on up. My whole argument has been whether or not you'd really want to chance that happening just to gain an extra night at home to watch TV. I know I wouldn't, but I also don't have offers rolling in hand over fist, either. But hey, like I also said, do whatever you want to

[thepontif]

It must be an interesting life for you.

[the yeti]

ok, we're 7 pages in... what did you do? or did i miss that part?

[Phil Smith]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

Not really. Turning down a gig because you have another gig is a legitimate excuse that no reasonable BL would bat an eye to. However, I personally know that if I made an offer to a player who I respected and he turned me down (only for me to later find out his real excuse was to sit at home and watch TV, after he had already been off for several days on vacation) I'd take it as an insult and that he didn't appreciate my gig offers. I'd simply X him off my list and move the next guy in line right on up. My whole argument has been whether or not you'd really want to chance that happening just to gain an extra night at home to watch TV. I know I wouldn't, but I also don't have offers rolling in hand over fist, either. But hey, like I also said, do whatever you want to

A BL that is worrying a month down the road whether or not one of the people he called that couldn't do the gig, was home watching TV on the night of the gig, after already finding someone, has some problems. I've played the role of BL, did the calls, and all that mattered to me is whether or not I could get the bodies to the gig for the money that I could afford to offer. The moment someone says no, I call the next person on the list. I think people that are actually doing this do the same but of course there are exceptions to every rule.

[Phil Smith]

Originally Posted by the yeti

ok, we're 7 pages in... what did you do? or did i miss that part?

You missed a lot, primarily the central thesis.

[the yeti]

Originally Posted by Phil Smith

You missed a lot, primarily the central thesis.

care to fill me in? should i have said "what would you do"?