Firing a founding member of my band??

[::Saint::]

My band (or 3/4ths of my band) are having a bit of a dilemma regarding our 4th member, and I thought I would drum up some advice on this situation.

Since I joined the band I have noted some things about our lead guitarist that have recently been becoming more and more blatant. Basically, to put it as bluntly as I can - he's just not a very good guitar player. He's a nice guy, albeit I believe he may have some mental / emotional issues to deal with. I personally believe he suffers from some form of depression couple with low self-esteem and poor impulse control, which comes out in his musicianship in various ways.

Basically his playing is extremely sloppy / imprecise and inconsistent; he has trouble staying in tune, and his overall sound and tone is really screechy and just generally bad. I have noticed that he doesn't seem to have any sort of self-awareness in this regard - it's like he just doesn't realize that he sounds BAD. There are a few songs that I cringe everytime we play because I have not once heard him play his parts without them being out of tune and amateurish. We all hear it except for him. Add to that the fact that the "lead" parts he comes up tend to come in 2 different flavours - chaotic, noisy, and LOUD or twangy, beginner type scales that don't even sound like they come from the same genre as what we are playing. About 20% of the time his parts theoretically work really well with the songs (poorly executed though they may be), but the rest of the time they (as our studio engineer described after coming out to our last show) conflict with the other guitar part, creating a big mess of sound. On top of that he doesn't take care of his gear, and his main guitar is a crappy Fender Cyclone with a giant crack in the neck (likely responsible for the tuning issues) that he never bothers to get fixed despite the numerous times I have mentioned to him that he needs to get it fixed. He just doesn't get it, for some reason.

We're none of us perfect, by any means, but since I've been in the band (only since February) everyone has really made an effort to tighten up and improve (largely at my urging), except for that lead guitarist.. he just keeps doing what he is doing. We have tried to talk to him about it before and point that we need him to play more predictable guitar parts that will work with our songs, but he just shrugs and says "That's just not my style - I don't play guitar like that" .. LIKE WHAT??! GOOD??! Gah..

Another major issue is that he can never keep any kind of schedule so he constantly re-scheduling our rehearsals to fit whatever he is doing that week.. in a lot of cases lately it's like the night before email "We're going to practice tomorrow" kind of crap that my wife has basically made clear she isn't going to stand for anymore. That crap is what killed my last band...

I really like the guy, and it was basically he and our lead singer who started the band in the first place, but we have all gotten to the point where we realize that he is holding us back and something is going to have to change. One big problem is that we rely on him for a rehearsal space (cramped and ugly sounding as it is).

We started recording in a professional studio last night as a three-piece (once again, guitarist's schedule conflicted), and just like everytime we have rehearsed that way before, the three of us said to each other "Man, these songs sound so much better with out all of [guitarist]'s crappy bits thrown in".

So... what do we do? My thought was to get the recording on this demo going and see what the guy can contribute and whether he is able to make something that sounds good and works with the tunes.. at least then we'll have a guideline for him. Otherwise.. I guess he's gotta go..

Thoughts?

[Rick Auricchio]

Record the songs and play them back. He may not be able to hear what he's doing while he's playing. The tape won't lie.

[Jazzdogg]

From what you've written, it sounds like you already know what has to be done, and it's the process of "firing" him that you're apprehensive about.

IMO, treat him as you'd like to be treated, but don't hesitate to replace him.

[spaz21387]

It seems like he needs to go. Atleast theres alot of people who play guitar so he shouldnt be very hard to replace. Just tell him what you said in here and see if that will eather get him to change or tell him that he needs to find another band.

[Matt R.]

What do you mean, "what do we do"? The guy sounds like he sucks and won't make any effort to get ahead. What's the dilemma? Fire his ass

[bongomania]

One approach, depending on how attached he is to "founding" the band, would be to disband; and re-form with a new name and new guitarist.

[hbarcat]

What you'll do depends on the answer to this question: Are you a group that has serious musicianship as top band priority or is playing together for fun and mutual companionship more important to you?

If all you desire is to play in your practice place for your own amusement then keep him since you get along with him.
If you want to sell yourselves to others as performing musicians then he almost certainly has to go.

[::Saint::]

Originally Posted by hbarcat

What you'll do depends on the answer to this question: Are you a group that has serious musicianship as top band priority or is playing together for fun and mutual companionship more important to you?

If all you desire is to play in your practice place for your own amusement then keep him since you get along with him.
If you want to sell yourselves to others as performing musicians then he almost certainly has to go.

We've talked about this and we definitely want to take this band as far as we can take it - we've got gigs coming up that could be really good for us or really bad depending on how we perform, and we've all basically agreed that as it stands, he doesn't have what it takes and we are weaker as a band because of it.

So I guess it comes down to him making some kind of radial change in his abilities or finding somebody new / striking out as a three-piece for awhile.

[mutedeity]

There are a few factors that aren't really clear that probably need to be considered. Firstly ,whether you are an originals band and if so what contribution does the guitarist make to the writing and composition. If he is a big contributor to that aspect then you have to either continue to encourage him to improve hoping that he will get the picture or cut your loses and fold the band with the remaining three of you starting a new band and writing new material.

Secondly if your goals are to be a professional unit or not. Seems like this is the case so you are going to have to do something about it.

It seems from what you said that you are being fairly diplomatic with your approach to him, which is fair enough, but it seems that the time has come to "read the riot act" so to speak. To give this guy the benefit of the doubt but also do the right thing by yourself and the other musicians in the band you need to tell him in no uncertain terms, but in a professional manner that his performance isn't good enough and that if it doesn't improve that you and the other guys will be forced to work without him. Tell him that his playing isn't up to par and that you can't accept him rescheduling all the time. Tell him specifically what is lacking with his playing and give him some tips on how to improve. If he doesn't think he can put the effort in or if his response is that he's "not that kind of guitarist" then you have to tell him that the kind of guitarist he is isn't really working out for you guys. Keep it professional and friendly on your part though. Then you just have to bite the bullet and source another rehearsal space and so on.

This kind of stuff is hard to do, I know, but at the end of the day you guys are all going to be dragged behind if he can't pick up the pace and you are really better off without him if he can't pick his game up.

[edpal]

we have all gotten to the point where we realize that he is holding us back and something is going to have to change.

Sometimes you just "got to be cruel to be kind" - but seriously, if he doesn't realize how bad he is out of tune or how bad his licks are there is a major problem. Most decent or better musicians(even my 14 yr. old daughter) kick themselves if they blow a lick, maybe even grumbling over it for hours afterwards,"can't believe I messed that up, just can't believe it". Then they go to the woodshed and put in some serious practice time - at least it is what I do, even if my bandmates didn't notice(or didn't say they noticed). Life is too short, the professional music business is too tough, and the prices we pay in time, money,health, relationships,jobs and creative energy are too high too put up with this act. IF he wanted to get AHEAD as much as the rest of you, you wouldn't HAVE to talk to him - he'd be talking to himself. After burning thru almost everything in the "prices paid list" above, I walked away from playing for a long time because I was putting up with bandmates with standards several levels below mine. Now I've came back but I know the score - look for people who are so interested and intense on where they want to go, it almost scares you that you might not be able to keep up with them. Unless he owns the band name he hasn't earned the right to hang onto it. If you pay for practice space you will have a lot less trouble cutting this guy loose, both physically and mentally. Add up your weekly cost for gas, equipment, time away from your women,etc. You don't have to be mean, but be honest & firm with him - you'll be doing everyone concerned a favor. A man I worked for once told me," if I have thought about firing someone for more than 20 minutes I do it".

[Stumbo]

Originally Posted by ::Saint::

Basically his playing is extremely sloppy / imprecise and inconsistent; he has trouble staying in tune, and his overall sound and tone is really screechy and just generally bad. I have noticed that he doesn't seem to have any sort of self-awareness in this regard - it's like he just doesn't realize that he sounds BAD.

Another major issue is that he can never keep any kind of schedule so he constantly re-scheduling our rehearsals to fit whatever he is doing that week..

Short-hand: He's not really musical and pretending to play in a band and run a band is just something to do.

I've run into many people who have an extremely difficult time incorporating new information and making changes in their lives.
They are so slow to change that it's nearly impossible to deal with them when things that are so obvious are oblivious to them.

He's reached a certain level of playing ability and if he's not improving, that's the best he can do. We all reach that point sometime in everything we do.

In relationships, people of similar I.Q. get along better. So what you're saying is you want to find someone who has a similar musical I.Q. to the rest of the band.

For me, I've started bands, been kicked out of bands (for musical and non-musical reasons), replaced people in bands and it's all comes down to common goals, temperaments and talents.

As far as the scheduling and rescheduling of rehearsals, since he controls the rehearsal space, he's using that as leverage to do whatever he pleases, just like his playing.

For me, either he would have been gone long ago or I would have.

I would investigate other places to rehearse and then move on.
He's not going to improve or change...I don't think he can.

[Dave Muscato]

I was reading along but when I saw "my wife," I realized that this is not worth it. If you guys were 16, 17, etc, I would say, "You'll figure it out," but seeing as you guys are not teenagers, this type of behavior is inexcusable. It's time to find someone more mature and responsible. His guitar won't stay in tune but he has procrastinated getting it fixed? Inexcusable.

Get this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Power-Positive.../dp/1569246084

"The Power of Positive Confrontation"

and strongly consider replacing him. Read the book first!! but don't let this snowball. Just hearing your side of the story, I'd say replace him.

[::Saint::]

To answer a few questions - we are an original heavy alt-rock band who have been writing somewhat collaboratively at least since I've been a part of it. The guitarist in question has had a somewhat large creative input previously, though our current lineup of songs has been mostly from the brain of our lead singer, and basically "written" to its current form as a collaborative unit.

To be honest with you, I don't think we'd need to really fold up the band or write new songs as we would basically be axing his parts out of the songs anyway. And the kind of person he is, I couldn't see him mustering enough energy to really dispute anything in terms of who wrote what. If we ever made it with any song he had had initial creative input on I think we would certainly credit him for his part, but aside from that...

It's just hard.. I think I agree with the comment that he may have reached the limits of his musical IQ and either doesn't have the capacity or just doesn't have the willingness to grow any further. It's a shame because in terms of person he has been an important member of the group.. unfortunately he is just ceasing to contribute in a musical fashion.

This recording process is going to be very telling, I think. If you guys want some example of his playing there are a couple of (badly) recorded songs on our myspace currently - http://myspace.com/devicebox .. most of the tracks in these songs were basically first or second pass for speed sake, and aren't the best out of any of us.. except for his, which I had to record several times and then edit together the best parts of each to get the lead parts as well as his (painful) backup vocals on the recordings. The first song definitely contains one of his more suitable parts, while the second song I had to blend his parts in with the rhythm and edit out quite a bit of in order to minimize the crap factor...

I just received a very early cut of one of our songs from the studio, which our engineer went a little processor happy on, but actually sounds really good.. and I don't at all miss the lead parts one bit.

[::::BASSIST::::]

If you take the music of the band seriously, which it seems you do, he absolutely must go.

[knarleybass]

Originally Posted by hbarcat

What you'll do depends on the answer to this question: Are you a group that has serious musicianship as top band priority or is playing together for fun and mutual companionship more important to you?

If all you desire is to play in your practice place for your own amusement then keep him since you get along with him.
If you want to sell yourselves to others as performing musicians then he almost certainly has to go.

I agree, you have to weigh out the pros and cons, he may never speak to you again.

[gb2]

had the same problem with my first band. I came in after they were already together for two years, after one month we had a short tv-appearence as a show band (nothing special, as simple as you can imagine...) and after that one guitar player/singer thought he's "the man". (needless to say, his playing/singing was really, really bad.)
screwed up at rehearsals for a few weeks, then not showing up for three months, in which we wrote an entire new set. then he came back, noticed there's no space left for either his guitar nor his singing, talking about how crappy the new songs were and didn't show up for the next two months again.

and I STILL had a hard time to convice the other two guys to kick him out... I didn't have the patience to wait for their confirmation, so the next time I saw him at the bar, I told him he's out. He hates me since then, but I don't care, because he's a complete idiot.
I left the band two years ago, and the founding members are still good friends, but even after I left the old guitar player didn't join in again, so I guess I've done something right

oh, I forgot: technically we did split the entire band, and formed a new band with a new name with 3/4 of the old members (and 4/4 of the old set...)

[invader3k]

Heh, I'd have a hard time doing the same thing, gb2, but good for you.

[sebastian]

Well you know what has to be done. Don't rely upon us to tell you the obvious, he has to be let go! He will either handle it well or handle it badly. Can't change either of those outcomes. Make sure all in the group agree then reach down grab your cajones and tell him he is out. Brutal, simple, quick and relatively painless and the group will be free to flourish.

On a side note where are you guys located in Victoria??

[jgroh]

It is going to be hard...he was one of the founding members and there long before you. However, you have seemed to give him enough "hinting at" to change and he doesnt get it, so there is only one thing left you can do. Seeing how it doesnt get any easier in this type of situation, no matter how old you are, the fact is you are taking time away from/jerking around your wife (at his discretion) and Id rather have some guitar player be mad at me and leave than my wife!

If you dont think you can come out and have an "intervention", then tell the others that you are dropping out and would like to reform under another name. I am betting they follow you.

[Jools4001]

I went through the same dilemma with a lead guitarist who, along with myself and our keyboard player, was a founder member of the band.

In my case, the decision was even more difficult because his playing was highly inconsistent. Some gigs he would absolutely suck and, at others, his tone, his choice of notes and the sheer emotion he wrung out of his guitar was utterly breathtaking.

His attitude to re-arranging rehearsals and turning up on time was also as inconsistent as your guy and ultimately, even though he was a long time friend, he just had to go.

Fortunately, by the time that decision was made we had attracted an extremely talented guitarist from a small group of people who came to most of our gigs - when we were stuck at a soundcheck because the guitarist had called to say he was running half an hour late, this other guy stepped in to do the soundcheck for us and played through a couple of our songs absolutely perfectly (just from having one of our CD's and coming to a dozen or so gigs). The scales fell from our eyes and the original guy was history