getting paid at the end of the night

[nashvillebill]

True colors?

I'm generous. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. But business matters must be handled with professionalism. I'm handling over a million dollars of contracts awarded on a project I'm doing now. If the concrete guys don't do their job right, leave their job half-done, and don't invoice my company for their work, are the steelworkers supposed to hunt them down and pay them the full amount? That's ludicrous!

Again, if the first band had made ANY effort to make arrangements to be paid, and played their gig in full as they were obligated to, I'd be on the side of "pay the first band"

But doing a shoddy job, not playing during the full time as expected, and leaving without making even a simple attempt at arranging payment? That constitutes forfeiting any expectation of pay.

[nashvillebill]

And BTW, I concur that the guy who received two amp heads should return one.

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally Posted by nashvillebill

True colors?

I'm generous. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. But business matters must be handled with professionalism. I'm handling over a million dollars of contracts awarded on a project I'm doing now. If the concrete guys don't do their job right, leave their job half-done, and don't invoice my company for their work, are the steelworkers supposed to hunt them down and pay them the full amount? That's ludicrous!

Again, if the first band had made ANY effort to make arrangements to be paid, and played their gig in full as they were obligated to, I'd be on the side of "pay the first band"

But doing a shoddy job, not playing during the full time as expected, and leaving without making even a simple attempt at arranging payment? That constitutes forfeiting any expectation of pay.

This.

[HolmeBass]

Originally Posted by nashvillebill

True colors?

I'm generous. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. But business matters must be handled with professionalism. I'm handling over a million dollars of contracts awarded on a project I'm doing now. If the concrete guys don't do their job right, leave their job half-done, and don't invoice my company for their work, are the steelworkers supposed to hunt them down and pay them the full amount? That's ludicrous!

Again, if the first band had made ANY effort to make arrangements to be paid, and played their gig in full as they were obligated to, I'd be on the side of "pay the first band"

But doing a shoddy job, not playing during the full time as expected, and leaving without making even a simple attempt at arranging payment? That constitutes forfeiting any expectation of pay.

Expecting a band that starts late to forfeit their pay is ridiculous. Was there a pre-arrangement to lose money for being late? Are you sure their starting late was entirely their fault?

And "the steelworkers" did not have to hunt them down to pay them, the "concrete guys" called looking for their money the very next day. Your analogy is faulty.

There was no existing agreement or guidelines on payment, not even, "You need to be here at the end of the night to get paid." Therefore the thing to do is pay them, and next time you work with them spell it all out in advance.

[nashvillebill]

Who cares why they were late? They did not apologize, their break was over schedule as well. And how did the first band expect to get paid--money magically appear in their wallet?

Now, if the BL of the first band--on the nght of the gig--had said "dudes, sorry we're late, sorry our break was too long, sorry we've got to run, but my kids are sick"--ANY sort of communication, hey then I'd bend over backwards to make sure he was treated fairly.

(And my analogy still holds true...the first band should deal with the bar, not the other bands.)

The moment money is involved, this music-playing becomes a business. And in business, all parties must act professionally or someone will not be happy. The first band did not handle this professionally at all so they don't get a whole lot of sympathy...in my opinion.

This would probably be a good time for the moderators to lock the thread, I think both sides have spoken their opinion fairly eloquently and in a civil manner, if the thread progresses I fear it may lead to less civil discussion

[Berger912]

When people take some thing they know is now theirs, it just shows how this country is falling apart. You hear about people like bernie madoff, but I'm sure he didn't just one day say hey I have a idea how to make some easy extra money. Taking what doesn't belong to you is just wrong, will always be wrong and no amount of rationalizing will make it ok. The OP is giving them his third which is the right thing to do. Their are others that say screw the other band, they might have been less than professional, but they play a set. And the right thing is to pay them and then never play with them again. Remember you reap what you sow.

[Deedubs]

Originally Posted by nashvillebill

This would probably be a good time for the moderators to lock the thread, I think both sides have spoken their opinion fairly eloquently and in a civil manner, if the thread progresses I fear it may lead to less civil discussion

i agree that this is a closed matter as well. i see both sides to this and felt caught in the middle. i chose to respect my bands decision, and do what i felt was right for myself. to me this wasnt a black or white situation. we could go on and on about this and get nowhere. thanks for everyones input.

/thread

[bassbully]

Originally Posted by nashvillebill

Who cares why they were late? They did not apologize, their break was over schedule as well. And how did the first band expect to get paid--money magically appear in their wallet?

Now, if the BL of the first band--on the nght of the gig--had said "dudes, sorry we're late, sorry our break was too long, sorry we've got to run, but my kids are sick"--ANY sort of communication, hey then I'd bend over backwards to make sure he was treated fairly.

(And my analogy still holds true...the first band should deal with the bar, not the other bands.)

The moment money is involved, this music-playing becomes a business. And in business, all parties must act professionally or someone will not be happy. The first band did not handle this professionally at all so they don't get a whole lot of sympathy...in my opinion.

This would probably be a good time for the moderators to lock the thread, I think both sides have spoken their opinion fairly eloquently and in a civil manner, if the thread progresses I fear it may lead to less civil discussion

FWIW Bill I agree 100% with you. You show up late, drag around and then take off on the other bands and then have the balls to come back and collect with threats? No way. I don't know any band in my neck of the woods in my circle who would pay them. I'm a very fair/honest guy always have been and have returned lost wallets with ID full cash a few times. But don't dick my band or our show it won't fly in NE Ohio so if you are the type to turn the other cheek don't come and play here.

[Downunderwonder]

Far out. The "concrete placers" were effectively the Project Managers who dabble in concrete placing, barely effectively, but the foundation was sucessfully laid. They figured they had done a day and half's work and took off home to their wives and came back the next day to find the steel workers absconded with their concrete placing fee having inserted themselves as Project Managers when the client got confused about who was who.

It's ridiculous to directly compare a DIY rock show with "real" world scenarios. The "real" world doesn't operate on Kalmic principle, more the pity.

[Syco_bass]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

Far out. The "concrete placers" were effectively the Project Managers who dabble in concrete placing, barely effectively, but the foundation was sucessfully laid. They figured they had done a day and half's work and took off home to their wives and came back the next day to find the steel workers absconded with their concrete placing fee having inserted themselves as Project Managers when the client got confused about who was who.

It's ridiculous to directly compare a DIY rock show with "real" world scenarios. The "real" world doesn't operate on Kalmic principle, more the pity.

Wow, you Aussies are so eloquent with words, but I’m afraid your analogy is a bit off mate. The concrete placers, as you call them, did NOT fulfill their duties IMHO. In this scenario they started the job late, took extensive breaks, and ultimately laid a faulty foundation. Then, to make matters worse, they left the job, without giving any explanation and not making any arrangements with the client for payment. For all we know the client may have interpreted that to mean the concrete placers were incompetent in fulfilling their duties and left without telling anyone so they could escape any further embarrassment. This left the steel workers to fix their problem, salvage the job and make the situation a success for the client. The confused, relieved and most likely grateful client then took it upon themselves to pay the only workers left for a job well done. It’s unfortunate that the concrete placers didn’t have a professional attitude or the work ethic to manage the project professionally and successfully. They may have been the project managers initially, but they voided their agreement, if there ever was one, when they did not complete the job, did not make alternate arrangements to collect their pay ahead of time and then left the job without notifying the client. Those who are not competent to conduct business professionally should study their craft and work with a mentor until they are proficient in their ability to deal with clients in such a way. These "project managers" had no business acting as such. IMO they shouldn't even be acting as "concrete placers" until they can be proficient at it. Now they are trying to collect money they didn’t earn from the steel workers that had to bail them out.

You are correct in one sense however. “It is ridiculous to directly compare a DIY rock show with "real" world scenarios”. This is the unfortunate part. DYI rock shows are very “real world” and are very, very common in this part of the world. Professional and proficient Indie artists are putting together succesful shows and tours all the time and all over the U.S. The true pity is that, at times, we end up with “project managers” that are barely competent enough to carry the guitar they are playing.

[bluewine]

When my band performs, we know how much, method of payment and who will be paying us.

Was the band told how much, when and who was paying them?

If the band didn't clear up those basic details I don't think their owed any monies.

Blue

[Factor88]

Originally Posted by nashvillebill

This would probably be a good time for the moderators to lock the thread, I think both sides have spoken their opinion fairly eloquently and in a civil manner, if the thread progresses I fear it may lead to less civil discussion

Agreed. Can we please get back to discussing music stands on stage?

[Syco_bass]

Originally Posted by Factor88

Agreed. Can we please get back to discussing music stands on stage?

+ 1 and FWIW, I don't allow any music stands on stage for any of my players. Unless it is a short notice and one of my regular subs are unavailable.

[HolmeBass]

Originally Posted by nashvillebill

This would probably be a good time for the moderators to lock the thread, I think both sides have spoken their opinion fairly eloquently and in a civil manner, if the thread progresses I fear it may lead to less civil discussion

Who doesn't like to get the last word? Nice try!

The way I see it is there was no agreement in place about payment- it doesn't then follow that at the end of the night anyone who's not there has forfeited their money.

Also, the first band being late, or taking too many breaks, or whatever other amount of flakiness they perpetrate, is also no grounds for forfeiting payment unless there was a clear delineation of such expectations in advance.

Why didn't you just tell the bar to pay the other band when they came looking for their money? Simple, easy, fair, gets you out of the loop. Taking another band's money is just a no-no in my book, no matter what, unless there was a clear statement of obligation and expectations that they breached, knowing they would in the process forfeit their money. Attempts to excuse or justify that action are just rationalizations in my opinion.

I see this people who would do unto others as they wish others would do unto them vs the people who do unto others and then split. With the others' money. Not cool in my book, but you're free to live your life as you see fit.

[mcnach]

Originally Posted by Syco_bass

Wow, you Aussies are so eloquent with words, but I’m afraid your analogy is a bit off mate. The concrete placers, as you call them, did NOT fulfill their duties IMHO. In this scenario they started the job late, took extensive breaks, and ultimately laid a faulty foundation. Then, to make matters worse, they left the job, without giving any explanation and not making any arrangements with the client for payment. For all we know the client may have interpreted that to mean the concrete placers were incompetent in fulfilling their duties and left without telling anyone so they could escape any further embarrassment. This left the steel workers to fix their problem, salvage the job and make the situation a success for the client. The confused, relieved and most likely grateful client then took it upon themselves to pay the only workers left for a job well done. It’s unfortunate that the concrete placers didn’t have a professional attitude or the work ethic to manage the project professionally and successfully. They may have been the project managers initially, but they voided their agreement, if there ever was one, when they did not complete the job, did not make alternate arrangements to collect their pay ahead of time and then left the job without notifying the client. Those who are not competent to conduct business professionally should study their craft and work with a mentor until they are proficient in their ability to deal with clients in such a way. These "project managers" had no business acting as such. IMO they shouldn't even be acting as "concrete placers" until they can be proficient at it. Now they are trying to collect money they didn’t earn from the steel workers that had to bail them out.

You are correct in one sense however. “It is ridiculous to directly compare a DIY rock show with "real" world scenarios”. This is the unfortunate part. DYI rock shows are very “real world” and are very, very common in this part of the world. Professional and proficient Indie artists are putting together succesful shows and tours all the time and all over the U.S. The true pity is that, at times, we end up with “project managers” that are barely competent enough to carry the guitar they are playing.

Wow... you turned it into a movie :lol:

Based on fact, even if half the story is made up to make a better movie ;-)

[bolophonic]

Maybe I missed it, but did the OP say that the bar owner gave the money for all three bands to the two bands that stuck around? All I see is that the bar paid his band and then paid the other band. Did the bar actually say, "here is half of the pay for all three bands?" I am not advocating anyone screwing anyone else over, but I still wonder if the third band wasn't shafted by the bar.

[fenderslaper]

Unbelieveable...

[NOAH_FX]

Originally Posted by HolmeBass

Who doesn't like to get the last word? Nice try!

The way I see it is there was no agreement in place about payment- it doesn't then follow that at the end of the night anyone who's not there has forfeited their money.

Also, the first band being late, or taking too many breaks, or whatever other amount of flakiness they perpetrate, is also no grounds for forfeiting payment unless there was a clear delineation of such expectations in advance.

Why didn't you just tell the bar to pay the other band when they came looking for their money? Simple, easy, fair, gets you out of the loop. Taking another band's money is just a no-no in my book, no matter what, unless there was a clear statement of obligation and expectations that they breached, knowing they would in the process forfeit their money. Attempts to excuse or justify that action are just rationalizations in my opinion.

I see this people who would do unto others as they wish others would do unto them vs the people who do unto others and then split. With the others' money. Not cool in my book, but you're free to live your life as you see fit.

If my boss gives me a bonus for a job we'll done and then my co-worker who did a shotty job comes by and tells me that’s his cut I owe him.. Guess what, talk to the boss, not me.

If the band's received the money and then gave it out at the end of the night, yes it's your BL's responsibility. In this case, it's not. In this case, all three bands were employee's for the night, it's up to the Employer, not the employees, to dole out the money.