Gig Advice

[andymcclure]

OK, first off, let me say I'm not sure if this is the right forum, but it seemed like a reasonable place to post this.

I'm in a couple of bands. in this economy, I've discovered that I can actually make more money by filling my calendar with pick-up gigs than I can in my former career. So, for the time being, I'm a full-time musician. Yay.

I picked up a thing with a drummer friend recently. It's not really just a gig, but I'm not joining the band by any stretch. I'm not doing this for money, but rather to pick up a couple fun gigs with a buddy.

That said, I'm not in a financial position to just donate my time to these guys; they have money, they're promoting a new CD, and they're hiring out a rhythm section. I need to at least break even.

They have one show coming up that's 350 miles away (700 round trip). They've offered $75 plus gas for me and the drummer to drive out, play the show, spend the night and drive back. We have a free place to stay, but food is our problem. I'm figuring 5 meals on the road. All told, I see this being about 30 hours of my life.

I'm also rehearsing with these guys every couple of weeks, and not charging anything for that.

So, if you say $10 a meal, I'll be making $25 to drive 10+ hours and play a show. Not counting wear and tear on my car, bass strings, batteries, etc.

I've countered with a number that will allow me to actually come home with a few dollars in my pocket. I'm not making a profit of any note, but simply making sure my expenses are covered and rounded up.

I'm assuming my offer will be rejected. This is where I finally get around to asking some advice here:

Am I on crack here? To me, $75 plus gas was an insult. I'm not asking for the moon, just to cover my a$$. I'm also trying to build a reputation as a reliable fill-in guy, and I don't want to put these guys in a position to bad mouth me.

Has anyone had a similar experience or any thoughts on how to negotiate this out? The show is in about 5 weeks, so they have time to reject me and get someone else to do the gig. The music is not technically challenging, and any competent bass player could learn it in the time alloted, so I don't feel I'm putting them in a pinch.

[bThumper38]

don't do it

[Bassman822]

For that kind of schedule, I'd ask for at least a couple of franklins plus gas

[von buck]

I don't even play local for 75 dollars.
also 1o dollars a meal? MacDonalds dollar menu. Eat a good breakfast and hit Micky d's for th rest


Andy

[Stumbo]

Originally Posted by andymcclure

I've countered with a number that will allow me to actually come home with a few dollars in my pocket. I'm not making a profit of any note, but simply making sure my expenses are covered and rounded up.

Taking 30 hours out of your life for $75 plus gas doesn't seem to be worth it to me. Seems to me you're donating too much to the band.

Unless there are a bunch more gigs lined up that will offset your costs, you'll be taking a pretty good financial hit to do this. Just the wear and tear on your car alone will cost you more than the gig.

[Ricky Daion]

The fact that you posted here with concerns about the gig tells me it's probably not worth it. You say you want to build a rep as a reliable fill in guy and that's admirable but don't be a sucker. Show them your expenses and your net income and ask them if they think that's reasonable for the amount of time, work and wear and tear on your vehicle.

I get tired of hearing stories of musicians working for nothing. "But the exposure will be great!" lost it's appeal to me years ago.

You didn't indicate whether the CD they produced is any good. If it was killer I don't think you would be posting here with your dillemma imho.

Good luck on whatever you decide to do.

[Dave Muscato]

Originally Posted by andymcclure

OK, first off, let me say I'm not sure if this is the right forum, but it seemed like a reasonable place to post this.

I'm in a couple of bands. in this economy, I've discovered that I can actually make more money by filling my calendar with pick-up gigs than I can in my former career. So, for the time being, I'm a full-time musician. Yay.

I picked up a thing with a drummer friend recently. It's not really just a gig, but I'm not joining the band by any stretch. I'm not doing this for money, but rather to pick up a couple fun gigs with a buddy.

That said, I'm not in a financial position to just donate my time to these guys; they have money, they're promoting a new CD, and they're hiring out a rhythm section. I need to at least break even.

They have one show coming up that's 350 miles away (700 round trip). They've offered $75 plus gas for me and the drummer to drive out, play the show, spend the night and drive back. We have a free place to stay, but food is our problem. I'm figuring 5 meals on the road. All told, I see this being about 30 hours of my life.

I'm also rehearsing with these guys every couple of weeks, and not charging anything for that.

So, if you say $10 a meal, I'll be making $25 to drive 10+ hours and play a show. Not counting wear and tear on my car, bass strings, batteries, etc.

I've countered with a number that will allow me to actually come home with a few dollars in my pocket. I'm not making a profit of any note, but simply making sure my expenses are covered and rounded up.

I'm assuming my offer will be rejected. This is where I finally get around to asking some advice here:

Am I on crack here? To me, $75 plus gas was an insult. I'm not asking for the moon, just to cover my a$$. I'm also trying to build a reputation as a reliable fill-in guy, and I don't want to put these guys in a position to bad mouth me.

Has anyone had a similar experience or any thoughts on how to negotiate this out? The show is in about 5 weeks, so they have time to reject me and get someone else to do the gig. The music is not technically challenging, and any competent bass player could learn it in the time alloted, so I don't feel I'm putting them in a pinch.

Your mileage is deductible as a business expense (the amount includes wear 'n tear on your car), as are your meals, batteries, and strings, considering this is your job now.

For what it's worth, for gigs seriously outside town (more than a half-hour drive or so), I charge 50 cents per mile, which includes gas (but only for the drive there, though), on top of my usual fee.

No way I'd do this gig for under $300 if I'm driving, considering you're not in the band (I'm presuming you don't get a cut of merch sales), and as a long-term promotional tool for the band, doing or not doing this gig won't benefit you directly except the the $ you charge for your time.

Unless you need this gig as a portfolio-builder and are willing to take a discount, I'd turn it down. If you do take a discount, make sure they understand that this is a one-time thing, as a portfolio-builder, and they should not expect the same discount next time.

In these situations (like when I'm playing a fundraiser that I personally want to support, but isn't a 501(c)3 that can give me a receipt for a tax deduction), here's what I do: Send an invoice showing the discount. For example, I might put the date & description on the invoice with a price of, say, $300, plus a mileage charge for 350 miles ($175), plus 5 meals for $50, for a subtotal charge of $525. Then, put a line that says, "xx% Portfolio-Builder Discount," and then a total charge of whatever you're willing to do it for. That way, it will be clear that they shouldn't expect this type of price schedule regularly.

Either way, talk to them and tell them what your position is. Make it clear that this is your job, and you like playing with them and want to keep playing with them, but you can't afford to work for $1.20/hour ($25 for a 30 hour commitment), and you hope they understand. Tell them that $xxx.00 is what you consider a fair figure, and you're willing to give them a one-time professional discount because you are still building your résumé. If they're not willing to work with you even after a friendly, professional chat, you were just getting taken for a ride anyway, so it's no loss.

It is tempting to work for less or free when you're starting out, but don't do it. It is very hard/impossible to get paid again, once word gets out that you'll work for free (or close enough) if push comes to shove. Stand up for yourself, but do it sympathetically and kindly, and you're golden.

Good luck!

[Punisher Bass]

$75 for that kind of time and distance? Absolutely not, it's insulting.

[IanStephenson]

In the UK there's a limit on what you can put down for milage expenses on your tax return of £0.40 per mile (call it $0.60). In practise this is what most places pay, so you'd be looking for $420 "petrol" costs before you start. What was the standard mileage rate at your previous job?

Where is the "free" accomodation? Sleeping in the back of the van is NOT free accomodation. Simarly for the food - eat well. What would you consider appropiate if you were travelling for a "real" job? You can compromise on some of these if you feel it's appropriate, but if you're not getting this (which you're clearly not) then you are doing it (at least in part) as a favour to them, so make that clear.

Sure you want to be proffesional and reliable - that means being clear about what work you're taking on, agreeing a fair price, and doing the work well. Turning down a gig because it doesn't pay isn't unprofessional.

[Joe Nerve]

Read the last page of this months Bass Player.

These are sticky situation that I also sometimes get myself into. You started the gig on a no pay basis and now that's what they're expecting. I've learned to just swallow it if it's only a hundred bucks or so. A month from the gig that $100 isn't going to make a difference. Pushing for more money or not doing this gig is most likely just going to cause bad vibes that aren't going to be worth the cash in the long run. I'd make it clear after this though that this is something you just can't afford to do any more, and in the future set your boundaries when walking into a group. I say this for myself as much as for you.

[Dave Muscato]

Originally Posted by IanStephenson

In the UK there's a limit on what you can put down for milage expenses on your tax return of £0.40 per mile (call it $0.60). In practise this is what most places pay, so you'd be looking for $420 "petrol" costs before you start. What was the standard mileage rate at your previous job?

Where is the "free" accomodation? Sleeping in the back of the van is NOT free accomodation. Simarly for the food - eat well. What would you consider appropiate if you were travelling for a "real" job? You can compromise on some of these if you feel it's appropriate, but if you're not getting this (which you're clearly not) then you are doing it (at least in part) as a favour to them, so make that clear.

Sure you want to be proffesional and reliable - that means being clear about what work you're taking on, agreeing a fair price, and doing the work well. Turning down a gig because it doesn't pay isn't unprofessional.

Ian, there is a limit here, too; it was 58.5 cents per mile, last I checked. Also, gas (petrol) is a LOT cheaper here than in the UK; a 700-mile round trip would cost more like $70/£50 in gas here. The rest of your post is spot-on.

As far as your last sentence, I would say it this way: Turning down a gig that doesn't pay *is* professional. Playing gigs that don't pay are either favors to friends, for a charitable cause, or the stuff of amateurs. You could fill your whole schedule playing for free if you tried... and didn't mind going broke. Pros don't play for free unless there's a really good reason, they really want to, and they can afford to. It doesn't sound like that's the case here. If you're on the fence about it already, that should tell you all you need to know. If you're doing it right, going to work as a musician should make you glad you do what you do. If you play for free now, you will only be setting a precedent you don't want to set, and it *will* come back to bite you. This is how musos get burned out. If you think you're worth more than that (and it sounds like you are), you need to charge what you're worth. It's not selfish or greedy to do that; it's just fair, and you shouldn't feel bad about that AT ALL. You are not in the business of working for free, and it's unfair of anyone to expect you to be. Hope this helps.

[bassbully]

I would go as far as my corner bar and play for 2 hours for $75.00. For what they are asking of you...

[John Wentzien]

Not to mention you are risking "life-and-limb" driving in MN in the winter!

[smogg]

just say NO!

[andymcclure]

Thanks... lots of good ideas from everyone so far.

A couple extra thoughts from me:

These guys are pretty solid. The CD is good, and they have a small but noticeable amount of buzz around them. This could be a nice resume builder, and that's why I'm looking at doing this at a "break even" level. In my opinion, $75 plus gas is NOT break even.

Also, as thrown out above, I have no stake in CD sales, merch sales, future income, etc. My name will most likely not be mentioned in any press. There's a good chance there will be a couple shows locally in the future, but these would still be relatively low-paying (but much less expensive for me to do).

The reason I'm sweating it now is that the original agreement I made with them was a verbal , "Sure, I'll play the gig, but I have to at least break even on it." Since then, all discussions have been, "Don't worry, we'll work something out. I'm sure it will be fine." In my experience, those NEVER turn out fine, and I thought it was time to come up with some hard numbers while they still had enough time to get someone else.

Again, thanks to everyone for posting. Keep 'em coming!

[andymcclure]

Originally Posted by John Wentzien

Not to mention you are risking "life-and-limb" driving in MN in the winter!

Yeah, my numbers are all assuming no blizzard. In early March, that's a long shot.

[ForSix]

This is a joke, right? Are you really BahamaBass?

[derrico1]

An originals group taking low $ overnight gigs on the minivan circuit doesn't seem like your path to a secure retirement, so I can't see doing the gig as a loss leader. (I'm not saying they're not good, but do the math on how many originals bands become profitable while feeding a bassist steady & profitable contract gigs.)

Otherwise, unless you take the gig for non-professional reasons (to be a pal or to indulge a hobby), only do the job if it pays enough to be attractive on its own terms. It sounds like this one is a "no."

[andymcclure]

OK, offer rejected. Any TC bassists out there who would like to be considered for this gig, I'd be happy to pass along your name and number.