Gig priorities.

[Floyd Eye]

Originally Posted by thepontif

So, you hire me for 2 weddings that pay $200 a piece, then Dave Sanborn calls and asks me to go on the road for a month. So I turn him down because of the two weddings? In my case, that is the reality of the situation. So "this is what you do, PERIOD" is not reasonable. Anybody can play satin doll for the people.

Well, I was responding to the opening post and I will admit, this was before I bothered to read the rest of the thread. My response is, of course, from my own perspective. I have one band and I don't sub for any other bands and no one in my band has people to sub for them. So my response was pretty much my opinion from my bands POV. Obviously like pretty much every other comment on the internet, there is no blanket statement that will cover all situations. My natural inclination however is to not bail on a commitment.

[Pacman]

Originally Posted by Freddels

Exactly. A local BL has to realize that if he/she books a world class player like Mike on a gig, there's a chance that he might not be available come the gig date b/c of a tour.

Exactly. It's all about communication. Even in my small market, people understand. I'm in a cover band, and was heavily recruited by the BL. I agreed to take the gig, with the understanding that there will be times I can't make the gig because my original band books something. I told her I'd make the effort to avoid conflicts, but that they probably would be inevitable. She agreed, in good part to what I bring to the table when I can make it.

[thepontif]

Originally Posted by SquierJazz72

I would say you definitely don't want to get a rep as a bailer. That will hurt, especially in the smaller areas. Word gets around quickly. I, like most everyone else, would do my best to line up a sub, and if I couldn't, I'd keep the original gig, unless there were some real mitigating circumstances, some truly compelling and legitimate reason why I couldn't pass up the second gig.

One might make more money short term, but it's hard to make money in the long run if people won't hire you for a bad rep.

I always hated it when people bailed on me for no legitimate reason, and iam sure plenty others feel the same way.

Yeah. Nobody wants to bail, and having a reputation for doing it is definitely a career killer.

But it is not cut and dried. It gets complicated.

And in reality, if a player bails at the last second, regardless if the reason, the hassle factor and ramifications in general are no different whether it was because of another gig or death in the family, spreading negative press about him in the case of taking the better paying gig IS retribution. I concede that it might be warranted in the case of a player who is bullshitting you, but lets call a spade a spade...the goal is to punish..and that's retribution.

[thepontif]

Originally Posted by Floyd Eye

there is no blanket statement that will cover all situations. My natural inclination however is to not bail on a commitment.

100% agreed

[Floyd Eye]

Originally Posted by thepontif

100% agreed

Love your sig line.

[thepontif]

Originally Posted by Floyd Eye

Love your sig line.

Funny, I'm posting from my phone, and can't see it. What does it say? I can't remember :-)

[Floyd Eye]

Originally Posted by thepontif

Funny, I'm posting from my phone, and can't see it. What does it say? I can't remember :-)

I like bass.

[thepontif]

Oh yeah. And I DO!

[lbbc]

A couple of years ago my band was offered a high paying New Year's Eve gig at a club we were trying to "break in to". We had a much lower paying gig at a club that booked us on a regular basis.

I stayed with the original gig (and that club went bankrupt a year later). The high paying gig club is stll in business. I may have made the wrong business decision, but did the right thing from a "moral" perspective. BTW, we never got to play the other club....

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by Pacman

It's hilarious to me that some of the people in this thread have no idea who they're talking to. Quite enjoyable.

The realities that exist at different levels of the music business are vastly different. Subbing is one way to bridge the gaps between those levels. Call me anytime, Mike!

You are correct about the different levels. However, the understanding of this issue is a two way street. A "world class" musician who is on call with some big names in music should probably think twice about committing to local sub gigs, knowing that he is actively trying to book touring gigs that will take him away from his commitments. While his decisions are obviously the best for him, canceling on local musicians has a negative impact on those musicians, and may cost them money and gigs.

[RustyAxe]

Once I've accepted a gig, it's a done deal ... no switching for a "better" gig. I might bend this rule for a life-changing opportunity, of course, but rarely is any single gig going to change the course of your career as much as would gaining a reputation as unreliable.

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by thepontif

And in reality, if a player bails at the last second, regardless if the reason, the hassle factor and ramifications in general are no different whether it was because of another gig or death in the family, spreading negative press about him in the case of taking the better paying gig IS retribution. I concede that it might be warranted in the case of a player who is bullshitting you, but lets call a spade a spade...the goal is to punish..and that's retribution.

You have to live with the decisions you make. To expect a BL to gladly accept cancellations, and then keep quiet about it is pretty unreasonable, IMHO. If you set the expectation on the front end that you are actively looking for a better gig, then the BL gets what he should have expected when he books you and shouldn't be talking crap about you. But if you gladly take the gig, without warning the BL that you are looking to "better offer" him, then you probably deserve any reputation you garner from that behavior.

There are some bands, like some of Roy's, that it may be worth it to keep a stable of musicians so that these types of issues can be accounted for without issue. For a guy like me, though, playing 24-30 gigs a year, I just don't have time for unreliable subs. Since I have dedicated band members, my subs are usually only booked a few weeks in advance, and I expect that they are committed when they commit.

[thepontif]

Originally Posted by guy n. cognito

You are correct about the different levels. However, the understanding of this issue is a two way street. A "world class" musician who is on call with some big names in music should probably think twice about committing to local sub gigs, knowing that he is actively trying to book touring gigs that will take him away from his commitments. While his decisions are obviously the best for him, canceling on local musicians has a negative impact on those musicians, and may cost them money and gigs.

There a very few gigs I accept locally that can't be covered by one of the many GREAT bass players around here. I can't not accept work because of the possibility of a tour coming up. Then I'd have to NEVER accept local work.

THAT'S the COMPLICATED part.

[thepontif]

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

Once I've accepted a gig, it's a done deal ... no switching for a "better" gig. I might bend this rule for a life-changing opportunity, of course, but rarely is any single gig going to change the course of your career as much as would gaining a reputation as unreliable.

Right on. Absolutely.

[thepontif]

Originally Posted by guy n. cognito

You have to live with the decisions you make. To expect a BL to gladly accept cancellations, and then keep quiet about it is pretty unreasonable, IMHO. If you set the expectation on the front end that you are actively looking for a better gig, then the BL gets what he should have expected when he books you and shouldn't be talking crap about you. But if you gladly take the gig, without warning the BL that you are looking to "better offer" him, then you probably deserve any reputation you garner from that behavior.

As I said, if you have someone lying to you just so they can make a little extra dough, they probably deserve to have the word spread about them.

But practically speaking, it IS retribution, by definition. And practically speaking, the reason for the cancellation has no bearing on how hard it is to replace him.

This is a philosophical statement, but it's true. From a purely professional standpoint, I get it too. As a human, the bandleader has a right to be pissed either way. But in the case of a death in the family, compassion mitigates the anger.

[The Diaper Geni]

It would seem that every gig has it's own "sub rules" and that open communication is best to avoid any bad feelings/lost income, no? And it's also important to be in with a circle of players that have the same expectations and philosophies regarding gigging/subbing.

Different BL's will have different expectations for their players. And each player has their own set of rules/priorities in life. Some BL's don't like the headaches of finding and playing with an unknown. (Personally, I like a little strange in my life. Keeps you on your toes.) That's cool. Some BL's may like working with different players and may think that "dealingwith the headaches" of playing with national level musicians that go out every so often is more than worth it. That's cool, too.



Group hug.

[thepontif]

Originally Posted by The Diaper Geni

Group hug.

I'm in :-)

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by thepontif

As I said, if you have someone lying to you just so they can make a little extra dough, they probably deserve to have the word spread about them.

But practically speaking, it IS retribution, by definition. And practically speaking, the reason for the cancellation has no bearing on how hard it is to replace him.

This is a philosophical statement, but it's true. From a purely professional standpoint, I get it too. As a human, the bandleader has a right to be pissed either way. But in the case of a death in the family, compassion mitigates the anger.

By this definition, I'd agree completely:

ret·ri·bu·tion (rtr-byshn)
n.
1. Something justly deserved; recompense.

There's always going to be some justifiable reasons why someone can't live up to their commitments. Death, major illness, acts of god, etc. But, when you start canceling gigs for more profitable ventures, you have to expect that those BLs aren't going to be inclined to give you a glowing recommendation. You're making a business decision. It may be the best for you, but not for others.

In my professional career, I've left a few jobs for better offers. It was the best decision for me and my family, so I don't regret it. Yet, some of my former employers weren't too happy with my decision, and a few of them wouldn't make me another job offer in the future. One has refused to give me recommendations. That doesn't surprise me........

[mellowinman]

In my opinion, this thread played out in the first four posts.

Bailing for a better paying gig is not very nice.

If someone is some kind of "world class player," then they really don't need advice from this forum.

They should probably talk to some other "world class players." For us common schlubs, our word is our bond.

[thepontif]

Originally Posted by mellowinman

In my opinion, this thread played out in the first four posts.

Bailing for a better paying gig is not very nice.

If someone is some kind of "world class player," then they really don't need advice from this forum.

They should probably talk to some other "world class players." For us common schlubs, our word is our bond.

I wasn't seeking advice, I was interested in people's opinions out of curiosity. Is it not ok for a "world class player" to do that? Or are we supposed to know everything, or not care?

The opinions I've seen are pretty much precisely what I would've expected. But I was curious.