Given an ultimatum

[mellowinman]

Originally Posted by ACalbass

Without reading all 4 pages,i will take the risk of repeat something already posted.

First of all,the work in the studio will begin with recording drums.
And depending how many songs you guys will lay down,we maybe talking several days,if we count edition.(edition means NO DRUMMER IS PERFECT,and will be needed correction)
Here you will really notice how good the drummer is for studio work,some are not cut out for it,no matter how perfectionist he can be.
This should help your self-steem,because everything is under the microscope.
After the drums is edited,you go second.
Your work can be as easy as to play a part of the song that repeats over and over ,only once,and the engineer will copy and paste for the other parts.
This can take 2 minutes,or 30 minutes,depending on your performance.
This mean : try to nail a part,they will use it for the rest of the song.
Or you maybe find out you can play the whole songs with little problems they can correct.
The work in the studio has changed a lot over the years,and you can feel assured that they can make you sound good enough.
Do not panic,try to enjoy and LEARN from the experience,instead of anticipating problems you have no way to know in advance.

In the early nineties, I recorded in a pro studio. Kid Johnny Lang recorded "Lie to Me" there, and Whitney Houston had done a single or two.

We were limited on time, because it was EXPENSIVE. It was 2 inch analog tape, with digital mastering. We started out playing as a band, with only the drums and bass going on as the "real" recording. The guitars and vocals were scratch tracks, just so we'd have a "live" feel to the recording.

We dubbed a few bass notes; maybe three or four on a couple of songs. Otherwise, the drums were done in full takes. No punches; no dubbing. Most of the songs were done in ONE take; a few were done in two. I don't recall a single song where we took more than three takes to lay down the drum parts.

The drummer I brought in was a local guy. He sat in with a band that sometimes featured Michael Bland, so I considered him a real big deal. He was dead solid, and I clearly remember the studio owner gushing about him, and asking me where I found him.

We took a total of three days to do every overdub, guitars; keyboards; vocals; additional percussion.

Here is a link to every song we did.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5E10F9B0330B4E03

Just listen to them, if you do; don't pay attention to the cheesy videos. We had long since run out of money when we shot and edited those at the local Public Access station.

A few years earlier, we had tried to record a few at a cheaper studio, and I tried to play bass. (I really wasn't a bass player at the time) The engineer thought so little of my bass playing that we used a sampling keyboard, and I played the bass parts on that, and they sounded fairly good. Not a good method if you play things that are unique to bass, such as glissandos and such, of course.

Recording isn't any big deal. The biggest part is getting good SOUND and accurately portraying what you are playing onto the tape, or digital format. There is no need for absolute perfection in rock and roll; you just don't want anything that sounds horrible, such as out of tune instruments; bad tone; off-key vocals, poor eq, etc.

Squawks and squeaks? Give me a break.

Everybody does it.

[Wookieonbass]

Originally Posted by QweziRider

And therein lies their problem. Tons of things out there sound like total dog crap when heard solo in the studio but fit quite perfectly in the context of the mix. The final mix is what counts, not the soloed track. They need to learn a bit more about recording before pointing that finger

I totally agree. I'ts surprising what can be heard in soloed bass tracks. Besides any engineer worth his salt can doctor the track and eliminate anything glaring. Or just go in, re-record that part and they punch it in. No biggie. Those "musical geniuses" in your band don't know what they're talking about! Fear you're playing is going to eat studio time? I can almost guarantee you the guy who will take up the most time in the studio won't be you but the d-bags who will later want to layer tracks, add an effect, redo a solo, blah, blah, blah! Rarely if ever is it the bass player that eats studio time.

What I think is going on is that they are clueless, and are feeling really insecure about the recording. So they pick on you because you've already given them the green light to do so. You've given your consent to be their scapegoat.

If you have the opportunity to lay your track separately I suggest you do so without the the others glaring at you because that will just make you more nervous.

As far as the bass, have it checked out well before the date and if a setup is in order so much the better.

I fully understand your insecurity about your playing. You obviously have a lot of respect for those guys and you want to please them. I do the same thing with the guys in my band. There comes a time however when so called constructive criticism becomes nothing more than out and out ragging with no regard for your feelings. That's when it's time to grow a pair and tell them to either back off or find another bass player. I bet with your work ethic and your willingness to be a team player you'll find a better band very quickly!

Good luck dude!

[bassbully]

Originally Posted by two fingers

Give THEM an ultimatum. Tell them to get off your back or find someone else who can play their music, write amazing bass lines, and be ready for the studio in 6 weeks. (Here's a hint. They can't do it. You hold as many cards as they do.)

You think like I do...this is the way I would of handled it. You don't want me fine! If you do great but get off my @ss.

[mcnach]

Originally Posted by LuckyPants

Thanks guys. The thing is I know the lines, I can play them and everything. Their problem is in stuff like fret buzz when I play high notes and also string noise when I'm moving along the fretboard i.e. the noise the strings make if you slide on them without pressing down. My bass always sounds good under the rest of the track but then they'll listen to it soloed and they'll notice things like this and pick me out on it.

I'm not saying that you are good enough already and don't bother trying to improve. No. You probably need to improve, as you admit it yourself. However... I think that you also may be too hard on yourself, which does not help.

If your track sounds good in the mix... what's the problem?
Can it be better? Probably. Does it work? You say yes, then it's ok!

Listen to the isolated tracks available in youtube and many other places of famous songs. Often the bass alone sounds pretty horrible. But in the mix it's great.

Listen to Flea's basslines isolated from the rest of the tracks. There are even some obvious mistakes ("Can't stop" comes to mind)... but in context it sounds good.

If you love this music you are making... don't quit. Do your best, but don't become obsessed. Just do what you can do.
If it sounds good, everybody will be happy in the end.
If they are looking for an excuse to replace you... don't make it easy for them. Let them say it clearly.

If you quit without really trying, you will always wonder "what if".

[geddeeee]

All this crap about 'technique' annoys the hell out of me!!!

NO-ONE has perfect technique... As mentioned in this thread, all the little 'imperfections' get lost in the mix. The sound as a whole is the most important part.

I have had the same problems with engineers when recording. I play hard and my technique is not perfect by any means. Soloed, my bass parts sound noisy. In the band context, it rocks.
A few engineers have suggested that I don't play so hard. I tell them to just hit record and let me worry about the playing!!! The results are that the engineers usually says, "Oh, you can't really hear all the clicks and fret noises 'in the mix'. Duh!!!!

After 9 years of playing, I reckon you will be pretty good, so don't let the other guys tell you how or what to play. Tell 'em to worry about their playing!!!!

[gus1894]

Transference. That's what it strikes me as. They've obviously convinced you of their talent - I'm sure they are - but now in the studio you will hear just how true it is that nobody's perfect. So they call you out? Why? To feel better about their own playing.

You're about to head into the studio and part with as much of your own hard earned money as they are. You should be able to have a great experience. They are your band mates (and one would assume, your friends), they should be building you up, not tearing you down.

[jungleheat]

DO NOT PUT FLATS ON YOUR BASS!!!

DO NOT PUT FLATS ON YOUR BASS!!!

DO NOT PUT FLATS ON YOUR BASS!!!

DO NOT PUT FLATS ON YOUR BASS!!!

DO NOT PUT FLATS ON YOUR BASS!!!

That's an absolutely HORRIBLE idea, especially if some of the artists you mentioned are an indication of what kind of music you guys play. Will they get rid of your string noise? Probably, but they will take all of your tone with it, leaving you with a rubbery, no treble sound mainly useful for things like motown and other 40+ year old styles and which you will have to fight against while playing/recording.

You really want to make your band mad at you? Show up to a paid recording session with flats on your bass for the completely wrong sound, and then have to waste time getting regular strings, taking off the flats, and putting on fresh roundwounds, stretching them, tuning, etc...

What you want to do is mainly just play the songs confidently with authority. Zero out the EQs on your bass and amp, and add or cut minimally as necessary to get a good tone. You can get stuff like "Fast Fret" to minimize string contact noise (it's a sort of waxy "stick" that you can rub on your strings making them a bit slippery and quieter).

And contrary to some others, I WOULD recommend putting on new strings shortly before going in to record (within a few days). Nothing worse when trying to record than rubbery, dead sounding strings.

[3mrhythm]

I sometimes feel in same boat.. One guitarist in my band teaches guitar the drummer plays like 4 instruments and is a berkley grad and other other guitarist is awesome too.. i'm self taught and can hold my own but i know how you feel..

getting things nailed down in the studio is all about preparation.

Our band practiced 3 songs at a time for a 2 month stretch. we played the songs to a click track and made sure to keep the bmp number handy so the studio could put it in our monitor when tracking.

we tracked our whole album live to the click. Saved us TONS of money and time. We recorded the 7 track album in three sessions.

the first day in the studio is usually the worst.. you will all be nervous and uncomfortable.. the key is to just play a song or two when you get there and setup just to get in your element.. forget you are in studio and just play. just picture yourself back in the practice space listening to the click. If you can get super tight to the click you can record quickly.

[Shinji]

It's not a lack of technique; it's style bro.
If you practice as much as you do you'll be fine, just play how you play.
As far as effects, a studio could be great. Some studios have many effects you can use, so you should be able to get a good distorted bass tone.
Good luck
...also try asking someone outside of the band for opinions on "technique"/tone.

[ibateur]

I guess its time to wait for LuckyPants to come back and let us know how it went.

[LuckyPants]

Sorry for the lack of update last night, internet was cut



Right, well we had the talk and it went surprisingly well to be honest. I think they were taken aback by me sticking up for myself and if anything it made them respect me more and appreciate it.

My points were:

- That I will work to improve things if they give me more specific and reasonable things to improve.
- That if we go into the studio, we go into the studio as a band of four with a camaraderie and that if I make mistakes, they've got my back instead of muttering about getting rid of me.
- I mentioned the solo bass track thing, gave them examples.
- Mentioned that I'm human and can't eliminate fret buzz and string noise entirely.

Their points:

- I need to focus on timing and consistency. The former is fine, my timing is immaculate. Consistency in note power is something that will come for me if I work on it, just because I don't track and I don't feel consistency is essential in live music (at least it's not something I think about because my consistency is good, just not studio level).
- If I show improvements in those areas in 4 weeks then we'll go into the studio as a band of four.
- I need to work on sound so that if one of them says to me "the distortion is too muddy" or "there's not enough gain on that", or whatever, I should be able to fix it. This is a fair point because at the moment I'm not entirely great at doing this.
- That I'm the best bassist they've ever played with (and they've all played with a good few).

So it was positive but pressure is still on to an extent.

[geddeeee]

Consistency of note power is a 'myth'!! Again, not even the best players can manage this.
Compression is used in the studio specifically for this reason!!

I have been playing for 32 years, and have played and recorded all around the world, and I can't replicate perfect playing each and every time.

Bass playing is about groove and passion. Technique has nothing to do with it.
A lot of 'experts' say that Geddy Lee's technique is flawed or useless. Hmmm.. that's why he's one of the greatest bass players of all time.

The other guys in the band seem to be missing the point. If you are the best bassist they have ever played with, then they should just let you play how you play. Leave the bass end duties to you.
All these niggles are non-existent IMO. These are nothing new. All their points are studio technical issues, which are standard things.
That's the whole point of production and mastering. To iron out any inconsistencies in the sound. Not just bass, but drums, guitars, vox etc...

The guys sound like they have never been in a studio before. Perfection is a myth.

All the best bands sound like crap individually, but as a unit... it works.

Just enjoy it. If you are 'up tight', this will show in the recording. Relax and play how you play!!!!

[Nashrakh]

My guitarist and I often make jokes about how instruments are supposed to sound like crap on their own to sound good in the mix when we dial in something horrible.

Out of curiosity I also YT'd isolated bass tracks. I found the Iron Maiden ones to be especially horrible (as are the RHCP ones which sometimes sound like some kid doodling around aimlessly), but I couldn't ask for anything better for what they do. So there's an eye opener for you...

+1 on compression, you may want to try that but I guess that's something the studio can lay over your bass track afterwards so I wouldn't sweat it too much.

[ibateur]

Originally Posted by LuckyPants

- If I show improvements in those areas in 4 weeks then we'll go into the studio as a band of four.
- I need to work on sound so that if one of them says to me "the distortion is too muddy" or "there's not enough gain on that", or whatever, I should be able to fix it. This is a fair point because at the moment I'm not entirely great at doing this.

Good on you for all the rest, which was positive, and most of your post.

- let's see what happens if they go in as a band of three, and tell them they are NOT allowed to use YOUR bass lines. I'm only joking

- "there's not enough gain on that" is something for the engineer to a large extent, in the studio. Yes you can work on it in live and in rehearsal, but the studio is vastly different.

[bassbully]

Originally Posted by jungleheat

DO NOT PUT FLATS ON YOUR BASS!!!

DO NOT PUT FLATS ON YOUR BASS!!!

DO NOT PUT FLATS ON YOUR BASS!!!

DO NOT PUT FLATS ON YOUR BASS!!!

DO NOT PUT FLATS ON YOUR BASS!!!

That's an absolutely HORRIBLE idea, especially if some of the artists you mentioned are an indication of what kind of music you guys play. Will they get rid of your string noise? Probably, but they will take all of your tone with it, leaving you with a rubbery, no treble sound mainly useful for things like motown and other 40+ year old styles and which you will have to fight against while playing/recording.

You really want to make your band mad at you? Show up to a paid recording session with flats on your bass for the completely wrong sound, and then have to waste time getting regular strings, taking off the flats, and putting on fresh roundwounds, stretching them, tuning, etc...

What you want to do is mainly just play the songs confidently with authority. Zero out the EQs on your bass and amp, and add or cut minimally as necessary to get a good tone. You can get stuff like "Fast Fret" to minimize string contact noise (it's a sort of waxy "stick" that you can rub on your strings making them a bit slippery and quieter).

And contrary to some others, I WOULD recommend putting on new strings shortly before going in to record (within a few days). Nothing worse when trying to record than rubbery, dead sounding strings.

I'm not going to start a string war or suggest that the OP uses flats but most of what you wrote about flats in the studio is dead wrong.
I should know since they are all I use and when you know how to use and EQ them and the studio knows what they are doing they sound huge. I have had plenty of grit and growl all I want...sometimes too much.

[bassbully]

Originally Posted by geddeeee

Consistency of note power is a 'myth'!! Again, not even the best players can manage this.
Compression is used in the studio specifically for this reason!!

I have been playing for 32 years, and have played and recorded all around the world, and I can't replicate perfect playing each and every time.

Bass playing is about groove and passion. Technique has nothing to do with it.
A lot of 'experts' say that Geddy Lee's technique is flawed or useless. Hmmm.. that's why he's one of the greatest bass players of all time.

The other guys in the band seem to be missing the point. If you are the best bassist they have ever played with, then they should just let you play how you play. Leave the bass end duties to you.
All these niggles are non-existent IMO. These are nothing new. All their points are studio technical issues, which are standard things.
That's the whole point of production and mastering. To iron out any inconsistencies in the sound. Not just bass, but drums, guitars, vox etc...

The guys sound like they have never been in a studio before. Perfection is a myth.

All the best bands sound like crap individually, but as a unit... it works.

Just enjoy it. If you are 'up tight', this will show in the recording. Relax and play how you play!!!!

I also agree perfection in the studio is a myth and in fact it can really handcuff a band and cause many re-takes. Anyone who has not been in a studio thinks every track has to be perfect and it is not true.

You need to get the cleanest tracks possible and then listen to the mix. Often we cut tracks that has an issue which we then went back and re-tracked to correct them only to go back to the messed up track for the song.
The messed up track sometimes had better feel or groove we could not get on the retrack and any messed up parts blended well and sounded cool.

[gus1894]

I like everything to be spot on in the studio, but the imperfections are part of all the great albums we grew up with.

Overdoing the overdub, auto tune, etc- part.of what bugs me about some of today's popular music.

[LuckyPants]

It was a good talk to be honest and again, I couldn't have done it without all of you. I won't get all gooey but I was at a very low ebb after the ultimatum and was 99.9% sure I'd walk away but you've all given me confidence.

We had a practice after last night's talk that went well, I impressed them further by conjuring up a nice dubstep sound for a new song that we need that on (they were talking about using effects on a computer and I kind of blew them away by being able to do it live)

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by eyeballkid

then tell them to man up with the wallet and hire Adam Clayton.
(he's kinda local to ya!)
sounds like theyre being s

Who's Adam Clayton?

Blue

[eyeballkid]

uh.... really?