Good lord. Club "rider"? Am I the only one amazed by this?

[lildrgn]

We played a club a few months ago. It's an up and coming club, great sound, great location, a great place to play. Isn't that great?

Anyway, they really have their stuff together. It's pro and run tightly. However, after our next gig there, I'm not sure if I want to play there again. I mean, I understand that they need to make money too, but shouldn't bands and clubs mutually benefit from their relationships?

Here's an email I got from the booking agent today. I've left out names to protect the innocent, otherwise it's verbatim:

SHOWS ARE NOT CONSIDERED CONFIRMED UNTIL ARTISTS RETURN RIDER TO XXXX XXXX VIA EMAIL
Start Times/Load In: Please see the following stage times below and use accordingly to your nig
· Sunday: Shows start at 7PM, Music ends no earlier then 10PM, Load in at 5:30PM
· Monday-Tuesday: Shows start at 8:30PM, Music ends no earlier then 11:30PM, Load in at 6:30PM
Xxxxxxxx Xxxxx 830-915, Lund Bros 930-1015, Xxx. Xxxxxxx 1030-1130
· Wednesday: Shows start at 9:00PM, Music ends no earlier then 12:00AM, Load in at 7:30PM
· Thursday: Shows start at 9:30PM, Music ends no earlier then 12:30PM, Load in at 7:30PM
· Friday-Saturday: Shows start at 10PM, Music ends no earlier then 1:15, Load in at 7:30PM
We expect all bands to perform the full time allotted to them.
All bands must load in from the alley entrance behind XXXX XXXX. Please do not set up any gear on stage until directed to by house sound engineer.

Promotion: It is expected that all bands on any given bill work to promote their show. Poster for any one date must be brought to the club 2 weeks prior to the show. If a poster isn’t created by the bands in the proper time Xxxx Xxxx’s graphics team will create one and have it printed. The cost for this is $60 and will be taken out of the door. This will cover the cost of design ($40) and the cost of printing 10 color posters for the club. In Addition to the required posters we encourage all the bands to explore advertising in other means including myspace.com as well as xxx xxxxxxxx. Xxx xxxxxxxx offers greatly discounted rates for all bands please contact Xxxxxx Xxxxxx at Xxx Xxxxxxxx xxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx for detailed ad rates.

Sound check: If the Headliner wished to have a sound check then they must load in, set up, sound check and then strike the stage for the opener. If you are the headliner and wish to have a sound check you must load in based off of the times listed above.

Payment: All bands will be paid in accordance with this agreement immediately after the bar is closed. (Band Name) will be paid (whatever you negotiated) after deductions of room fees and 10% for taxes. Room Fees: Weekends $125, Weekdays $75
$5 Cover, 3 Way split of door after costs
Parking: Please load and unload all gear though the back door of Xxxx Xxxx. There is an alleyway behind the building and though bands are encouraged to make this happen quickly as to not block the flow of traffic through the alley, a temporary block is acceptable. The back door is for BANDS ONLY. If you are caught with non-band members you will NOT BE PAID for the night.


Volume: Stage volume at Xxxx Xxxx can be intense. Please be aware of your stage volume and listen to the sound engineers suggestions and/or recommendations.


Drinks: Beer will be provided for in the greenroom. BAND MEMBERS ONLY. (PLEASE DO NOT GIVE BEER TO FRIENDS/FAMILY ETC.) All other beverages must be purchased at the bar.

Guest List: Musicians are allowed 5 guests per band unless otherwise negotiated.
Sound/Lights: If a band has their own sound or light technician please notify the booking agent at least one week in advance.
Underage Musicians: It is required that all bands with ANY members under the age of 21 notify the club upon booking confirmation. Underage players may only be in the bar during their set time and AT NO OTHER TIME.
Merchandise: The club will provide a merch table for the bands to use. It’s located at the front of the stage at stage right. This table is to be used exclusively, if there is patrons at the table please notify the sound engineer and they will work to make the table available.
IN ADDITION the bar owner request one medium size tee shirt and one CD for all bands playing in the club that have such merchandise. CD’s we be used to play in the bar, thus promoting bands that we work with and supporting the local music scene. Tee shirts are worn kindly as a means to promote the bands that have played Xxxx Xxxx and to keep the Xxxx happy and in style.
Questions/Concerns: Your contact person when you get here is always the sound engineer. Any questions should be directed towards the Bar Manager. If after reading this club rider you have questions regarding this document please contact Xxxx Xxxxxx or Xxxxx XxXxxxxx via the xxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx email address.

I understand that as a band, sometimes you just gotta bite the bullet and play the show. We had a show in Jan where we basically each ended up paying $5 to play a gig. The room and sound guy cost $75 and we only made $60 at the door, hence we covered $15. But, at that show, we weren't REQUIRED to create posters or pay for them if they weren't created.

Whatever happened to the good ol' days? I remember when clubs would do at least some of the work. Nowadays, they see it as them doing us a favor.

I don't expect to drink for free, but I sure as **** ain't asking them to put my drink in a fancy glass and have it served by the hottest bartender in town. Why should they expect me to bring X number of people, put up posters, GIVE THEM A FREE CD AND T SHIRT, and, if I don't cover the cost of room and sound guy, play for free (or worse, pay to play)?

It just don't make no sense anymore.

[Bassmanbob]

Wow. That's pretty amazing. A free t-shirt and CD, you make the posters and no guarentee of a payment. It's a no loose situation for the club, but all the risk is on you.

I've heard of clubs in S. Florida where the band pays to play!

When I did bar gigs in the mid 80's, it was $100/night/player. This stuff is pathetic! On the other hand, with no smoking in bars in some states and a severe crack down on drunk driving (which really is a good thing), bars aren't making the money they used to. It's difficult to blame them too sometimes. Even CBGBs in NYC is getting ready to close down. They can't afford their rent is what I heard.

[Munjibunga]

Well, it looks like just a slightly disguised pay-to-play gig. I'd never do one of those.

[Bassmanbob]

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

Well, it looks like just a slightly disguised pay-to-play gig. I'd never do one of those.

Munj: We're too old for that kind of crap.

[Josh Ryan]

Yep. weak.

[theshadow2001]

If I organised a gig and the owner came with something like that to me I would tell them exactly where to shove their gig and Im sure the rest of the band would have my full backing.

A free CD is grand if they are going to play it. I'd even give out free CD's to those who were genuinely interested in the music but looking for a free T-Shirt??? Come on! Thats a joke! A specific size is given as well. Someone is obvioulsy just looking for some free clothes.

The thing about posters is laughable.

Playing a gig for free or for little money just for fun and enjoyment is ok. But when it gets to the stage that you have to pay the owner money just to play there is not at all acceptable.Especially when it was an amount thats not even peanuts to the owner, its the dust that you find on peanuts and thats an understatment!

There are other costs associated with keeping a band running: fuel, the time spent practicing, eating out which is more expensive than at home, accomodation, rehersal space costs, equipment, strings and all the other things venue owners and punters don't see you do or spending moeny on. Then to have the nerve to ask you for money after filling their till from selling drinks is absurd.

My advice: Don't even wait for your next gig to stop playing there cancel it now

Wait a minute, if they play CD's from bands that play there, they won't have to pay royalties to whatever authorities you guys have for piping commercial music. GAH! that makes me even more annoyed at this place. I retract my "free CD is ok" statement and would like to +1 my own "cancel it now" statement

The venue should be named an shamed

[lildrgn]

Yeah, I'm waiting for my mates to respond. I think I'll "forget" to reply to the email, therefore leaving it unconfirmed...

[lbanks]

Screw that! I'd just rent a hall and throw my own bash before I'd agree to that. YMMV.

[Josh Ryan]

Originally Posted by lbanks

Screw that! I'd just rent a hall and throw my own bash before I'd agree to that. YMMV.

I've done this woth other bands, lots of fun, except when you are supposed to have AC and they "forget" to leave it on.

[Blueszilla]

I honestly don't see how any band worth their salt would want to play there, I mean not for $5 after all is said and done. Do they believe everyone wants in? Why? Is it the hottest spot in the western hemisphere? will you become instantly famous, get a record deal? Who wrote this incredibly arrogant rider? Do they do this elswhere?

Sorry for all the questions, mostly rhetorical though...

[Woodchuck]

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

Well, it looks like just a slightly disguised pay-to-play gig. I'd never do one of those.

Yep! Good call.

[JoshB]

wow...that pretty much sounds like my idea of a grade A, crappy gig. +1 to the cancel column

[lildrgn]

Originally Posted by Blueszilla

I honestly don't see how any band worth their salt would want to play there, I mean not for $5 after all is said and done. Do they believe everyone wants in? Why? Is it the hottest spot in the western hemisphere? will you become instantly famous, get a record deal? Who wrote this incredibly arrogant rider? Do they do this elswhere?

Sorry for all the questions, mostly rhetorical though...

It's by no means a dive, but, in truth, it's a nice club. Only, like most other clubs in Seattle, they seem to cater to bands that they know will draw. Good luck if you're a band that is just getting your feet wet.

I just sent off an email backing out of the show. I'm a big baby about the whole "bad karma" thing, as well as the bookers talking amongst themselves about how difficult we might be to book, but, for cryin' out loud, maybe the booker needs to get a clue and LET THE FRIGGIN BANDS PLAY!!

Thanks for talking me back from the ledge.

[Munjibunga]

Originally Posted by Bassmanbob

Munj: We're too old for that kind of crap.

I'd be too old for it if I was 19.

[cheezewiz]

It sounds to me like the club owner has his crap together.
In a way, it be better dealing with him than some stoned or drunk bar owner who can't remember what he told you five minutes ago.

Sure its a raw deal for the bands, but apparently, at least some bands are going along with it. It seems to be the nature of the beast, that some bands, especially ones with younger members, will go along with just about anything to be able to get out and play in public.

I wouldn't take that job in a million years, but when I was 17, I just may have.

.

[mwm70]

Originally Posted by SMASH

I can see both sides of it. I presume this is an originals band, if not then ignore the following :

Too many bands do zero promo, just expecting a bar to give 'em free drinks all night while they play poor tunes while poorly tuned. *That* is what killed live music just as much as any change in tastes or DJs.

Some of it seems over-the-top no matter what the case, though I agree with Cheese that it's refreshing they seem to have it together. I like the bit about posters. If bands get posters made ahead of time they might actually put some up. Too few bands do, which brings us to the kinds of clauses seen above.

Hate to see this in Seatown though, as they've always had a thriving local scene and I hope it doesn't creep up here. The last bunch of originals gigs we've done were sellouts at some of the city's top live clubs and they paid very well.

+1

You also have to remember that the club owner has costs for his daily operations. Bartenders, bouncers, soundman salaries along with rent/lease/mortgage payments, insurance and maintence costs. As stated above this guy seems to really have his act together and to be honest from a business stand point what he is requiring is not that extreme. When I was in an originals band 10-15 years ago you had to pay your dues. Most first and second gigs at "A Rooms" you were lucky if they let you have 1 guy to help you get your gear off stage during band changes let alone a guest list. It was have a draw or don't expect to come back. I worked my tail off promoting and did my part.

It was mentioned above about renting a hall and throwing the show yourself. In essence that is what you are doing here but included is a sound system with soundman, lights and an entire staff. All for $125 + 10% for taxes, total of maybe 200 bucks. There is no where around here that you could rent a hall and hire a sound and light company for that. You are still getting a negoiated fee along with a third of the door as payment. If you don't think you can draw enough to cover and make some money, then maybe you aren't ready for this place. It is a business at the point you are at and you have to look at it that way.

Just my 2 cents.

[Woodchuck]

Okay, don't flame me, but here goes: I couldn't care less about what a club owner has to pay for to stay in business. Do a business cost analysis before you open a club. I don't dig the whole making it hard for the bands, just so you can cover your costs. Screw that! McDonald's doesn't have a "fry buy in" if you want a burger. I don't care if he has to pay for batenders, waiters, etc. That's the cost of running/owning a club. If they can't afford to run it, do something else. JMO.

[brianrost]

Hmm, sounds totally pro to me. Everything spelled out, no surprises and they actually HAVE a green room and a merchandise table. They spell out the cost of the room that will be deducted from the door so there's no guesswork. Wish more venues around here had it together like that.

Anyone too cheap to voluntarily leave a CD and a T-shirt is an idiot. I've long been handing out tapes/CDs and T-shirts to bar staff to help hype the band. Every time the bartender wears your shirt or spins your CD is FREE advertising for YOU.

[mwm70]

Originally Posted by Woodchuck

Okay, don't flame me, but here goes: I couldn't care less about what a club owner has to pay for to stay in business. Do a business cost analysis before you open a club. I don't dig the whole making it hard for the bands, just so you can cover your costs. Screw that! McDonald's doesn't have a "fry buy in" if you want a burger. I don't care if he has to pay for batenders, waiters, etc. That's the cost of running/owning a club. If they can't afford to run it, do something else. JMO.

As a musician I can see your point, but I am sure on Talkclubowners.com the response to the bands would be: "Signing my rider is the cost of bands doing business. If you don't like it play somewhere else."

Bands do play a part in causing this problem. Lack of promotion and just plain old crappy "all original" bands create an environment of distrust. If you can't fullfill the stipulations of the rider you probably are not ready for that venue. Again JMO.

[Woodchuck]

There's a Talkclubowners.com?