Has anyone heard of Afton?

[CopiusX]

Title pretty much says it all, but my band was contacted by an agent from Afton, which apparently will book shows for local bands. They seem like a very good deal; they'll book us shows with other artists similar to us, we get a cut of what they bring in, and it's all at no charge to the band. However, this might just be one of those to-good-to-be-true deals; it doesn't seem like they demand much at all out of the bands other then showing up and bringing a minimum number of fans. Has anyone dealt with these guys before? Do they have any bloodsucking contracts with freaky fine print? Will they actually give you your cut after your gig?

tl;dr: Will Afton screw us over or are they legit?

[Intune]

Originally Posted by CopiusX

...we get a cut of what they bring in, and it's all at no charge to the band. However, this might just be one of those to-good-to-be-true deals; showing up and bringing a minimum number of fans.

You should ALWAYS get a cut. There should NEVER be a charge to the band. I could understand a small fee for the house pa, sound guy & light guy. Showing up is good. Most places insist on this part.

And now the deal killer "...bringing a minimum number of fans."

Never, EVER promise fans. You have no control over the weather, prior commitments, etc.

Tell them that you want to work it through your booking agent and see what they say...

Beware of signing anything with these people. No, I've never heard of them but I know their ilk.

[CopiusX]

Damn, I'm glad I checked here first, I never would've thought of garunteeing fans as an unreasonable request.

[ZoneofInhibitio]

i worked with them once at a show in houston, texas at the meridian. They werent that well organized and we ended up making $8. So it sucked.

[crijan]

Afton is the new name of Big Time Entertainment. Do a google search on them to get your full share of bad pay-to-play experience stories.

They contact me monthly with "great opportunities" for Sunday or Tuesday night gigs at venues I've never heard of or even better venues that I just played at on a Friday or Saturday.

[SkaKing27]

I sometimes do sound at a few venues around St. Louis and I have worked with them. They are very much a "pay-to-play" kind of deal. My band doesn't do shows like these. They have you sell tickets for like 12 bucks each and give like 2 dollars off each ticket. Sadly it's getting hard for bands that are just starting out to get shows around here without having to deal with these type of companies. Long story short, don't do it.

[eotpr]

Are you talking about playing in Afton Wyoming? I just did a gig there last weekend.

[lonote]

"If something seems too good to be true, it probably is." Read it, learn it, live it.

[Michael Case]

I've never heard of the company you mentioned, but I know that this world is crawling with people looking to take advantage of start up bands. Just play shows with other local bands, put on the best show you can, build a mailing list, and promote the ever loving s##t out of your band. Search out the best people to assist you in your career, and research everyone who offers you any deals.

[MrRumble]

We just were contacted from some girl on myspace claiming she books for Afton but offered no details and it was clear she didn't read our profile, we are a cover band, book ourselves and are not desperate. She clearly could not write a decent intro letter, misspellings, no capitals, wrote like a teenager etc. What a twit.
Looking at their dates for Minneapolis shows, it's all no name bands at no name venues and they book 5-7 of them in one show. Yikes!
No one should pay to play or sell tickets.

[Eyeshot_Bassist]

They used to be Big Time Entertainment. We had the pleasure of getting ripped off by them early in our show playing careers. Stay away from them, they are nothing but scam artists.

[tsalky3000]

This is RYAN im one of the CO-FOUNDERS of the company. just wanted to share my thoughts and CLARIFY a few things:

1. PAYMENT is clear, upfront, and repeated to all acts multiple times, so that nobody is "in the dark." ZoneofInhibito, if he was only paid $8 only drew out only 8 fans. Meridian is a nice club in houston, it has alot of nationals and isn't the easiest place for a local band to get themselves booked at. crowds there need to be decent at least, so that band KNEW FULLY going into the show, if they draw poorly and get 8 fans out, their pay is going to reflect that.

Essentially, we only ask this of our artists:

Do what you tell us you will do. Be good on your word.

thats it. if we book you with the understanding youll draw 10 fans, then just do that. if we book you with the understanding youll draw 25 fans, then just do it. do what you say you will do. we communicate to our acts that at meridian operating costs are high, and if shows aren't big the club wont be too stoked to let us keep bringing in local acts. I am 99% sure that when we booked that guys band we asked him to confirm for this particular club only if he knows they can draw 25-30ish fans out. Him drawing 8 out means he did not do what he said he would. so, his pay reflected that. he might be wondering "why did i only get $8."
lol well our booking staff, the club, and OTHER BANDS on the bill were probably wondering "WHY did this band book this show if they never intended to do what they said they would?"

PAY IS ALWAYS MADE CLEAR to all our acts right from the initial artist config, and then REPEATED to each act 3 times throughout the booking process, EVERY SINGLE time they book a show. So, for this guy to NOT know that drawing horribly, 8 fans, will get you $8, is absurd. We made that clear every step of the way.

Had he simply read what we sent to him and TOLD him to read, any of the 4 times the payment details were given, he could have easily thought ahead and realized if his band is only going to draw 8 fans that is what he is going to be paid.
WE WOULD RATHER any act talk to us way beforehand about pay issues/concerns, RATHER than them playing the show and then bitching after the fact that they were paid EXACTLY WHAT WE SAID THEY WOULD BE PAID. Other bands playing shows at meridian are making $100-$400 per show depending on your draw, so an act that draws more than this band is making exponentially more between normal pay and bonus pay.

2. We never have been, and never will be payytoplay. WE never makes bands pay up front for tickets, and we never make bands pay out of pocket for unsold tickets. In essence, its free for bands to book shows with us, their FANS pay to see the show, and the bands GET PAID to play. any money coming in always comes from THE FANS who are paying to see the show. money never comes out of bands' pockets, it always comes from THE FANS.

3. WE DO WHAT WE SAY WE WILL. we never promise something and then don't do it. if we make a mistake, we fix it and make it up to the band. IF a band leaves without getting paid because tehy forget, we send a check. if we have promised a band bonus pay but our show manager screws up and doesnt give them that, we send them a check, AND THEN our show manager is reprimanded and written up. If bands email our booking staff with problems, we spend time addressing it and dialoguing with them.


To say that we are a sccam or that we are misleading is FALSE. it is not true.


IF THE WAY WE DO THINGS IS NOT to your liking, dont book with us. its that simple.


But we are NEVER misleading, we never are unclear to our acts, EVERY SINGLE DETAIL IS UP FRONT RIGHT AWAY, and we REPEAT each detail each time an act books a show.

ANY artist who plays on our shows who does not know how pay works, or how any other details of our shows work, apparently FAILED to read the details that we provided MULTIPLE times to them throughout the booking process.

It is not right to call us a "scamn" simply because a small minority people have FAILED TO READ THE EXPLICIT and CLEAR details in the emails we send them, and tell them to read.

By the time an act fills out the artist configuration, (which any act we book does) they have check boxed EACH item that talks about pay and show details.


I'm not sure how an act can complain about pay, when THEY checked this box on our artist config... its pretty clear. I've pasted examples from our online config process (all our artists complete this and check these boxes if they are on our roster and palying our shows), so you can see what I mean for yourself:

------
YOU SHOULD KNOW YOUR OPTIONS:
If you like to be more informed about what options are available to you as an artist for performing live, please visit our options website (Options Website)

[ ] I am aware that you are not the only option artists have for booking shows and will make informed decisions about which shows I would like to play.

--------
ARTIST PAYMENT
We want every artist to understand how our standard pay scale works, and what opportunities we provide to receive bonus payment on top of that. Our artist payment structure works very well for many artists, but is not the best fit for everyone. Please take a good look at how things work so that you can decide if we are a good fit
for you. For exact payment details, click HERE

[ ] I completely understand how artist payment works, and I am also aware that reliable acts often receive bonus payment on top of the normal pay scale.

-----------
MAKING SURE THEY KNOW WE DON'T WANT THEM TO PLAY FOR US UNLESS THEY FEEL WE FIT INTO THEIR PLAN FOR SUCCESS:

[ ] I understand that you want me to decide on my goals, figure out a plan to get there, and only to play your shows if and when they fit into my plan for success - success as I've defined it.

[tsalky3000]

There is a REASON that Promoters who bring in national/regional tours DO NOT usually work with LOCAL ACTS.

Those promoters KNOW that the promotion they do for the national/regional tours is meant to TELL THE EXISTING FANS in the city about that act, so that they attend the show.

IF those promoters found that their promotion tactics work at getting people out who haev NEVER heard of that band...

then those promoters would APPLY their awesome promotion tactics TO LOCAL SHOWS, and make a KILLING because they'd magically be able to get 200-300 person local shows all the time with all of their awesome promotion tactics.

WAIT, is that happening? No. Promoters of Regional/National tours generally STAY AWAY FROM booking local shows, for that very reason.


There is no company that runs solely off of promoting local shows. If it were as SIMPLE as,

"promote this local show of local acts, and WHOA all of a sudden 200 people will come out who have never heard of those bands, solely due to the promotion that company did for the show..."

Then don't you think EVERY single club in the country, and many companies would start up and just DO THAT? Promote local shows, and just take a cut?

Haven't you ever noticed that clubs do promote their local shows? Yet still not many (if any) people actually attended due to that promotion?


Call an ALL AGES club, or go to talk to an ALL AGES club and say:

"I DONT want to bring people out but you can get people out to see me, right? I mean, since i'm a good musician, you'll be able to convince a lot of people who don't know who i am to come see me - without me approaching the people who already like my music, right? Im looking for YOU to get the fans out, without me having to do that part of it."

see how successful that is getting you shows...



Our company puts in effort to promote our show listings to millions nationwide by TV ads, Radio Ads, and online ads.
We try and get exposure for our artists in those ways.

But we also realize for these shows to succeed it takes us doing our part in promoting, but ALSO the artists themselves letting their EXISTING FAN BASE know about the show and making sure to get their current fans out to see them.
It's a two way street.

-RYAN (co-founder)

[tsalky3000]

Thought:

Go to any all ages club in town and tell them,

"I really don't care at all if you meet your expenses when i play your club, its not MY PROBLEM to draw fans to YOUR CLUB. I expect payment no matter what, and whether or not YOUR CLUB gets enough money brought in to cover your bills and expenses for the night is NONE OF MY CONCERN as an artist."


See what the club says... Some people in this thread have shown they actually BELIEVE in that type of mindset,

its "NOT MY PROBLEM TO WORRY ABOUT BRINGING FANS OUT."



So, IF YOU THINK that really is a great "mindset" to have. Test it out....


Call an ALL AGES club, talk to an ALL AGES club, convey that mindset to them. Then ask HOW excited they are to get you onstage?


It doesn't take a genius to understand WHY clubs want, need, and prefer bands that CARE to help bring out fans and make sure the clubs bills get paid so they can stay open.



-RYAN (co-founder)

[slackdaddy]

In my opinion, anytime a band is asked to sell tickets, it is "Pay to play" UNLESS the band is independently promoting the show. This is something that should be handled by the promoter or venue.

From what I can tell, AFTOn was "Big Time Entertainment" at one point.

We my band was contacted by their Atlanta representative. I asked him for references from bands that he had worked with before and surprise, surprise, I NEVER heard from them again.

So I advise you to talk to bands in your area that have worked with them and get their opinion

I also found this online which confirmed my suspicion:
http://www.wig-out.com/&pay-to-play.htm

NOTE the "breakdown" page. Looks fancy but where do the numbers come from? As someone who has spent YEARS working in clubs I know that this is false information. They breakdown expenses but leave out crucial elements such as insurance and PRO fees.

[18eranaRic]

Once the actual company "snaps" back to defend themselves like this...it's a bad deal.

[Ubersheist]

Originally Posted by tsalky3000

This is RYAN ..... blah blah blah blah blah....

Originally Posted by tsalky3000

There is a REASON that Promoters who bring in national/regional tours DO NOT usually work with LOCAL ACTS.....

... more blah blah blah blah blah

-RYAN (co-founder)

Originally Posted by tsalky3000

Thought:

Go to any all ages club in town and tell them... wow... I can't believe this guy's still blathering on... blah blah blah blah blah....

-RYAN (co-founder)

YOWSA! I don't have the time to wade through this manifesto. Ok... well, maybe I do, but I guarentee that almost anyone else who reads this thread doesn't have the time to sift through this.

What's the synopsis? Please, Ryan, keep it within a few paragraphs with just 3 or 4 sentences each! Sheesh!

[guitfiddle0409]

Originally Posted by MrRumble

We just were contacted from some girl on myspace claiming she books for Afton but offered no details and it was clear she didn't read our profile, we are a cover band, book ourselves and are not desperate. She clearly could not write a decent intro letter, misspellings, no capitals, wrote like a teenager etc. What a twit.
Looking at their dates for Minneapolis shows, it's all no name bands at no name venues and they book 5-7 of them in one show. Yikes!
No one should pay to play or sell tickets.

Don't these clowns at Afton realize that misspellings, poor grammar, hideous typos, dim-witted phrasings are in themselves a major turn-off let alone the laughable "terms" they offer to the bands? Maybe when I was younger I would have fallen for this nonsense, but no way these days.

[baalroo]

I would agree that Afton isn't a scam, it's simply a monumental rip-off. They are very clear that they are simply a middleman taking a cut from other people's work.

[DudeistMonk]

I would agree that Afton isn't a scam, it's simply a monumental rip-off. They are very clear that they are simply a middleman taking a cut from other people's work.

+1