Head guy taking exorbitant cut

Aaron · #1 06-13-2008, 01:20 PM

At the local level, I've more or less always been payed an equal share as everyone else (including the person running the show). Sometimes the head guy takes a little bit of a bigger cut, which has generally been legitimate for investing time in booking, calling people, etc. And there is also off-setting band members travel expenses, which I think is valid.

I have a feeling that I'm in a situation where for a some shows, the head guy is taking a huge cut. For one up and coming show, I have a feeling he is taking ~$600 where everyone else is getting $150. I'm not sure how to go about confronting the topic. It seems like one of those issues that if I ask for a fair share, I'll just get replaced by someone who is fine with $50 or $150. At the same time, it seems like a pretty crappy deal. I do feel that I have some clout in the group. I might not be a 'star' featured player, but the tunes have formed around my style of bass playing.

peterbright · #2 06-13-2008, 01:27 PM

Is there any accounting of the funds received? How do you know what the contract is for?

troy mcclure · #3 06-13-2008, 01:29 PM

Is it a band or are you a sideman? I would suggest you talk to the guy and raise your rate, if he treats you like a sideman, act like one...

OtterOnBass · #4 06-13-2008, 01:30 PM

How is the band run? Are you equals or is it 'John's Band'?

Payment is definitely an issue the band should be clear on in order to avoid this kind of suspicion. I've heard of a local bandleader who is known for cheating his band, so musicians stay away.

gonzorob · #5 06-13-2008, 01:33 PM

Get him off to the side, and ask him if you can talk about how the band is payed. If he is willing to go into detail and explain everything then I wouldn't worry, but if he goes into defensive mode and becomes standoffish you may want to start looking for a new gig.

JimmyM · #6 06-13-2008, 01:34 PM

You will never get anywhere in business by counting other people's money. If someone offers you a gig, you have two choices...take it or leave it. If the leader takes an exorbitant cut, that's his right and you have no right to demand an accounting or ask what the whole band is getting paid. You may find it unfair, but you also have no idea how much money or time he spends trying to book gigs, so even though it seems exorbitant, he could possibly be making less per hour than you are.

If you know he's taking a lot and you want to negotiate up a little, that's one thing, but to demand an accounting or an equal cut...hell, if you did that to me, I'd lose your number. Go ask Justin MJ if he's making the same thing Trent Reznor makes...he'll probably laugh.

gonzorob · #7 06-13-2008, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

You will never get anywhere in business by counting other people's money. If someone offers you a gig, you have two choices...take it or leave it. If the leader takes an exorbitant cut, that's his right and you have no right to demand an accounting or ask what the whole band is getting paid. You may find it unfair, but you also have no idea how much money or time he spends trying to book gigs, so even though it seems exorbitant, he could possibly be making less per hour than you are.

If you know he's taking a lot and you want to negotiate up a little, that's one thing, but to demand an accounting or an equal cut...hell, if you did that to me, I'd lose your number. Go ask Justin MJ if he's making the same thing Trent Reznor makes...he'll probably laugh.

I don't think it would be out of line to ask how he pays the band. Sure he may have offered this guy a gig, but that doesn't mean he can in turn expect everyone else in the band to sit back and get paid peanuts while he claims the bigger spoils. After all, there would be no gig without the rest of the band. Unless of course the rest of the band is ok with it. Then its just a matter of the posters preference. Does he want to work with someone like that? If not then its time to move on.

Aaron · #8 06-13-2008, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

You may find it unfair, but you also have no idea how much money or time he spends trying to book gigs, so even though it seems exorbitant, he could possibly be making less per hour than you are.

In this case (and only this case), I have a pretty solid idea.

Blueszilla · #9 06-13-2008, 01:51 PM

IMO that's a bit out of whack ($600 vs. $150), if this is a band. If this is an 'act' and you are a hired gun, maybe not. As a hired gun, pay agreements happen before a note is played. In bands I've played in things are shared evenly (pay and expenses), but there are exceptions. Current band is a blues trio, GP wrote the tunes, lyrics/music, does the vast majority of the singing, and books the gigs, maintains the website, etc... He takes a 10% premium off the top of gigs that pay $400 or more for this work, which the drummer and I are aware of and agree with. Many of the gigs are out of town and we share the ride and gas/overhead expense. The GP pays GRT and calculates net pay, keeps a journal and me & drummist sign for our pay for every gig. Seems a bit anal, but it works for us and we never argue about money.

I say make sure you know the process and understand the breakdown before you go any further. Lack of understanding will lead to problems. Even if you don't agree 100% with the policy, at least it will be a known quantity, and you have to know what it is if you want to change it.

Good luck!

Aaron · #10 06-13-2008, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

If you know he's taking a lot and you want to negotiate up a little, that's one thing, but to demand an accounting or an equal cut...hell, if you did that to me, I'd lose your number. Go ask Justin MJ if he's making the same thing Trent Reznor makes...he'll probably laugh.

To me, the norms as a sideman for a national act and getting hired for a local gig seem completely different. Even as a sideman in a number of local acts, I have always been payed an equal share. I know it is completely different with the heavy hitters, but aren't they generally paid a steady rate per night/week/etc.?

Aaron · #11 06-13-2008, 01:53 PM

That's for everyone's feedback. I'm pretty green when it comes to music business.

tZer · #12 06-13-2008, 01:58 PM

Did he establish the pay plan up front or has it been a floating sort of thing? In my last few bands, I knew upfront what to expect for most all gigs well before playing them and on "special gigs" where we all knew there was a bigger paycheck (New Years, Weddings, Riverboats, etc... gigs outside the typical bar gig...) we also knew exactly what our cut was - and it was always fair. All band leaders I've worked with have been very upfront about how they figure out who gets what and it's almost always been, "You guys get $X and I get $X + a little more for the extra stuff I do..."

If you are on a more, "we got a gig and you'll get paid $X for this one" and next week, "we got another gig and you'll be getting paid $Y for that one"... Then you have some right to ask how he's determining your cut - but in general, as JimmyM says,

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

You will never get anywhere in business by counting other people's money. If someone offers you a gig, you have two choices...take it or leave it.

If you don't like what he's offering, you can tell him, "Sorry, that's below my cut-off. Either pay my rate or I will have to find another gig."

JimmyM · #13 06-13-2008, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron

To me, the norms as a sideman for a national act and getting hired for a local gig seem completely different. Even as a sideman in a number of local acts, I have always been payed an equal share. I know it is completely different that the heavy hitters, but aren't they generally paid a steady rate per night/week/etc.?

When I work with Bowzer, I am paid an agreed-upon nightly pay. It is nowhere near what Bowzer makes. When I work with the band by itself, our drummer books us and does all the legwork so he takes 10% extra. When I book the band and do the legwork, I take an extra 10% as well. I also pay everybody as well as I possibly can pay them, and my pay is well on the higher end of what people make around here, so they have no room to complain about what I make.

However, I have been offered local gigs by people who I know are taking a ridiculous amount of money for themselves. I will either try to negotiate my pay up or turn the gig down, unless of course, they meet my usual price. But I never say something like, "I know you're making $____ and only paying us $_____." It's really none of my business what the leader makes. I have been offered a gig and I can either take it or not.

Aaron · #14 06-13-2008, 06:21 PM

Thanks for the insight, Jimmy.

I would say that it is more of a band situation. There is a definite frontman/leader that writes the tunes (or at least sketches, which eventually evolve into tunes) and does the legwork, but there is a specific lineup that rehearses and contributes ideas towards arrangement. There are subs quite frequently, though.

fdeck · #15 06-13-2008, 09:24 PM

If the band members are getting paid fairly, then I don't worry about what the bandleader is getting. Some of those guys spend all day hustling gigs, whereas I just show up and play. Here in Madison, the unwritten rule seems to be that the bandleader takes a bigger cut on casuals, but splits it evenly on club gigs.

What I have observed is that if a bandleader is making a lot of money, they will tend to distribute more of it to the band. In the long run, they will get a reputation, and they will get quicker response from better players when they make calls. Guys who short their bands end up having to dig deeper to find players who tend to have more "issues." Also, we players have a sixth sense to warn us when a low-dollar gig is a sign of other problems such as a bandleader with "issues."

One thing bandleaders have to watch out for is that if they regularly take exorbitant cuts, it attracts more players to become bandleaders themselves, or for entire bands to break loose. Thus, there are some market forces imposing discipline.

One thing I watch out for is to make sure I am not undercutting the full time players. That's a no-no in my book. I depend on those guys for referrals, but more importantly, for keeping the music scene going.

JimmyM · #16 06-14-2008, 12:09 AM

FDeck speaks a lot of truth, and has a lot of good advice for bandleaders who may be tempted to take exorbitant cuts. It WILL come back to bite you on the ass, as greed always does.

As for undercutting, it's the sole reason so many musicians who used to make a living with it can't anymore. An undercutter is no better than a scab who replaces striking workers in my book. Undercutters totally ruined the Florida club scene, and now they're threatening to ruin the convention scene.

IanStephenson · #17 06-14-2008, 02:41 AM

Let's say there's 4+1 in the band... Better to play for the tough/selfish business guy who can books a $1200 gig, keep $600 and give the rest of you $150, than the nice, all equal shares guy who books $250 gigs, and gives every one $50...

If the guy can get good paying gigs, then he's worth having on your side. If he was paying me $50 and keeping $100 for himself I'd have a problem. If he can pay me $200 or more then he's earned whatever he keeps for himself. All you need to ask your self is, are you making more money playing with this guy than you would by doing something else.

If you think he's not worth his cut then fire him, and book the gigs yourself.

Ian

Fnord Explorer · #18 06-14-2008, 10:21 AM

Undercutting is a horrible habit where I live, generally in original bands. Original bands don't make a lot of money as it is, but there are always crummy bands around here willing to work for free. I blame it on every bar in the city clearing a corner, throwing up a couple of speakers and calling themselves a music venue.

Good thing I'm not in it for the cash. I'd be broke!

As for the topic, if you're a sideman, Jimmy is right it's not your business and you negotiate it like any other job. If it's truly a band, even with a guy who does a little more work, you totally have a right to records of accounting. It's like being an investor in a company and not seeing transaction records. That's called embezzlement.

nsmar4211 · #19 06-14-2008, 10:31 AM

Hey I'm in Florida-find me these scurvy undercutters now!!! grrrr
Undercutting bands is different than undercutting your players though.

So, if you have 4 people in band, gig pays 1050 and you get 150? They you're not in a "band".....you're a hired gun. The "bands" split it in an agreed upon manner. Hired guns take their pay and hush. I'd take $150 as a hired gun.

Bands discuss these things, and things like taking out tip money for the bartender, taxes, who buys what equipment, who pays for promo materials, etc. Otherwise......back to the hired gun thing

.

One time a band leader payed less that what they had said, saying they gave the club a break due to low turnout... I was hired gun. Part of me wondered if leader took a pay cut too-had I found out they didn't? well

. Needless to say I didn't play with them again.

As for *bands* undercutting other bands, the good ones here don't. Yes there are groups who come in a play 4 hours for $200, and then the bar wonders why the customers either aren't staying or are all 18 and buying cokes and water. You get what you pay for!
However, the rest of the musicians are actually a pretty tight group. It's a sure bet that someone in a given band has played in another local band or with the members of another band. So word of deviousness gets around. And I'm under a disowning threat from my bass teacher if we start undercutting.....don't want that! I'm not done learning

Long story short, it's up to you what you want to be....hired gun or band member......

jsm81 · #20 06-14-2008, 10:44 AM

If you are indeed part of a "band" like nsmar4211 defined, then I would probably get the other members of the band together and confront him as a group. Bands need to make these decisions together. But if you are just a "hired gun", then maybe it's time for you to ask for a raise, and if that's not cool then it's time to move on. Hey, you're just a hired gun anyway, I'm sure there are plenty of "bands" looking for a good bass player.