Hired Gun

[Revvv]

How many of you would accept a position touring on a National and International level as a hired bassist instead of being accepted as a member?


How many bands (signed) are using hired musicians rather than members that are considered equal partners?


I was recently invited to forfeit my present career in order to hit the road with a band that is being pushed by Sony. (Sorry, but the band name is going to remain unknown at the moment). When I asked what my involvement would be, I was told I would be hired to play bass, nothing more. Just get on the bus and play when the stage lights are lit.

That sounds like the ideal life for a musician, but for me; well, I have concerns. I would be on the road for weeks at a time. I would only be home for a few weeks out of the year. I have a wife and two kids. I don't have an issue touring, but I do have an issue only being set in the dark as a nobody while a front man gets the glory for the work of an entire band. If I am playing in the studio (which I would be), living on a bus, and writing, I feel that I should be given more than a hired spot. I don't care about investing my life in someone else's music only to be replaced at the drop of a hat if one person wants to replace me. If I hit the road and sacrifice time with my family I want to know that I will still be with the group years and years later.

While voicing my opinions and concerns I was told that many, many bands are solo projects in which the band is not a part of the label, but are employees of the band. When I asked for examples, I got answers such as Britanny Spears, John Mayer, Madonna, and every Hip Hop artist on the planet.

What bands are out there that are built of session players rather than signed members? How many session players have been with the band so long that they seem to be a permanent member?

[FenderP]

Look at Bon Jovi ... outside of Tico, Richie, Jon, and David, it's all hired guns. The bass player for Jovi has been with them for years (he even played in the studio with them in the 80s when they had a "Real" bass player).

If the pay is good and guaranteed, and you can work out any family issues, I say why not?

EDIT: For the record, there are no guarantees in life. Look at the numbers of people who have been laid off here in the USA in what a few years ago were stable lines of employment. There's a lot of reward that can come from risk. If you are banking on being there in 3 or 5 years, don't bother. YOu need to hedge your bets. You may be there, you may not be. Plus, who is to say this person will be hot that many years down the road?

[D.Don]

Oh well, either you are a gun for hire, or you're not, if you're not, stay out. The opening you got there is a dream to a lot of cats who love that life, jump in, do the gig, jump out, next gig (now with the good word about you from all other artist and bands who loved your performance and skills).

I jumped off the train in a band many years ago where the singer (who was running the band) was starting to get a lil bit too much dominant when we where producing tracks in the studio, and when he started to demand things of me that I really didn't want to put up to. The reason to me in the end to quit, was that I didn't want to become a musician. I love music, I love to play, listen, write, produce etc. but I am not someone who plays what I am told and walk home with the dough in my pocket feeling happy and waiting for the next gig.

The singer is today a recording solo artist, released in several countries and doing very well, best thing of all is that we today are very good friends, and that I do appreciate a lot. We have a good time together when we meet but still we have different goals in life, so we keep it at friends and everyone is having a good time!


D.Don

[ThunderV]

In essence they are guarding any long term success from you. If you do the studio work make sure that you get credit for it, especially if you are writing the bass lines. Other than that, enjoy not having to get involved with all of the stupid bs involved with actually being a member of the band.

[cassanova]

Originally Posted by FenderP

Look at Bon Jovi ... outside of Tico, Richie, Jon, and David, it's all hired guns.

Well you basically summed up the entire band. Hugh McDonald is the only hired gun in the band.



If the pay is good and guaranteed, and you can work out any family issues, I say why not?

I agree with you. This could be the opportunity of a life time. IMO it sounds like a big part of what could be stopping the OP from wanting to do this is ego. Here is why I think that a bit

I don't have an issue touring, but I do have an issue only being set in the dark as a nobody while a front man gets the glory for the work of an entire band. If I am playing in the studio (which I would be), living on a bus, and writing, I feel that I should be given more than a hired spot. I don't care about investing my life in someone else's music only to be replaced at the drop of a hat if one person wants to replace me. If I hit the road and sacrifice time with my family I want to know that I will still be with the group years and years later.

Whats the big deal if you sit in the dark where nobody can see you as long as youre getting paid? Thats ego IMO.

I know you dont feel like being replaced at the drop of a hat and and that you want to be a part of this for years and years, but NOTHING in life is guaranteed. Any band you join always runs the risk of being unemployed, especially a local band. A band backed by a major label and doing national touring, not as risky. If you take the tour you more than likely will have some job stability. Not to mention a very credible resume and this gig could also lead to bigger and better things.

If you have no problem touring then swallow some of that pride and take the gig.

[FenderP]

Originally Posted by cassanova

Well you basically summed up the entire band. Hugh McDonald is the only hired gun in the band.

But ... live Bon Jovi now is an extra guitarist or two, another keyboard player, etc. Hugh is the only constant in the studio AND live and is basically a member without being a member. This situation is more like the Bon Jovi one.

[D.Don]

Is bon jovi still around?

His first hit single was played by the e-street band (runaway) ...



D.Don

[Jazzdogg]

Bobby Vega didn't say no to Tower of Power when they hired him to temporarily replace Rocco while he was recovering from surgery a few years ago, despite the fact that he was a "hired gun."

I don't hear PacMan complaining because he's a "hired gun" for the USAF.

How many top-flight studio cats turn down a recording gig if their name doesn't appear on the CD liner notes as a "bandmember?"

[otis_thick]

The idea is to get into the door. If this is your ticket to the party go on in. Then make as many contacts for YOUR benifit as you can. If you are doing a good job other people will notice. This may not be your "ideal" situation but the door is knocking and it doesn'y always knock twice!!!!!!

As far as Bon Jovi You guys are forgetting Randy Jackson "american Idol" was not only a hired gun but writer and producer for Bon Jovi as well. What you are talking about is "Ghosting" where record companies would hire session"Ghost" musicians that actually recorded the albums but got no credit. Mainly went on in the 50s & 60s. Here is a hired gun story. John Melloncamp did it with his band. Louis Johnson and Willie Weeks, played bass on his UH-HUH album "Pink Houses" "Crumblin Down" "Authority Song". Toby Meyers his "band" bass player was pissed that he had to show Louis and Willie the bass lines yet they would not let Toby play it in the studio.

[IanStephenson]

If you "joined", they could still kick you out in 6 months - they just wouldn't have to pay you in the mean time!!

What happens when the band flops? At the end of the tour you'll have a whole load of wages saved up. They'll have no guaranteed income, but only win if they REALLY take off. Chances are for most bands that are being "pushed" the hired gun makes more cash - that "push" all comes out of their pockets.

Would you work any other job for a share of future profits, or would you want wages? Your wife and kids can buy food and pay the rent with wages - QuikiMart don't take dreams of stardom.

[SMASH]

That's pretty standard. It's called a job.

Lots of major bands have hired guns, and even if you're an "official member" it doesn't mean you share an even split, or any split, of the many different steams of revenue or costs.

If you were arleady at a point of getting a supposed push from Sony and touring, would you just hand away full shares? I sure wouldn't.

KISS would be one example that's had plenty of hired guns. All the boy bands. Metallica. AC/DC. Guns & Roses. Ozzy. The Who. Pink Floyd. Queen. Madonna. Etc. Many of the biggest acts of all time.

Since you already have a job, actually a "career" and a family, I think it'd be stupid to go on the road with that band given you won't likely even have a guarantee you can't be fired with an hour's notice, have to pay your own flight home, because the drummer's friend or their first choice suddenly became available to fill in. Unless your work is OK with that, but in today's economy I wouldn't count on it. When people take a leave they risk showing how critical they are ... or aren't.

As with any job, get everything in writing, and even if something is in writing don't expect to count on it without covering your own legal fees for possibly years in court.

Too many "if"s in your post, and "if" is a very heavy word. This is all common sense in all kinds of business. I respectfully suggest if you need to be told all this then you're not at that level and if you sign on you're going to learn a lot of unpleasant things the very hard way.

Heck, a lot of big stars end up with little or no money. Check out the books "Rock 'n' Roll Goes To Court" and "KISS and $ell". Or any major bio - at one point bands/artists like Rolling Stones, The Who, Pink Floyd, Kiss, Billy Joel, and Elvis were all insolvent when they were selling out arenas worldwide.

"Expect the best, prepare for the worst" and "It's A Long Way To The Top If You Wanna Rock 'n' Roll".

[AlembicPlayer]

I don't take a job unless it's business and this offer is business.
As far as being a hired gun...and not being "IN" the band/business...look at it this way.
Ask the artist before you play a single note of original music....Do you have the bass charts, or am I WRITING the parts? If the answer is, here are the bass lines..then you play the written lines as a hired gun. If you are writing parts, then you need to be compensated for that, and that puts you into the business on a deeper level. Sounds like that is not what they are looking for tho.

Either way, you have to negotiate your deal upfront before any playing goes down.
USE A CONTRACT.
This sounds like a great opportunity and I personally would welcome the offer. But make sure you cut a good deal for yourself.

IMO, running a band like a business with hired "guns" or employees is the only professional situation I would get involved with. I wish more local bands would run their act in the same fashion.

good luckand
LIVE THE DREAM !!

PS - I'm about to go on a small tour with the band I've been a partner in for the past 2 years. We do all our business in this fashion. Pay hired guns a flat rate as my partner and I expand "our" business.

Livin' the dream a day at a time!



__

[Lady Kayri]

If you take a look at the history of almost all bands, small, large, local, international, famous or not - even the 'real' members change out fairly frequently, due to personal or creative differences, changes in individual lives, sickness, and so on. Some of the 'sidemen' in older bands have actually served longer than the original member they replaced....Actually, in some ways, if you have a good contract a 'hired gun' may actually have a more 'settled' job than one of the 'full band members.' I suspect what you have to look at is how it's going to affect your family and so on. Me, if I was even good enough to get such an offer? I'd probably grab it, regardless of some of the 'iffy' aspects; but that's because I don't have any kids, my current job is defintely NOT my / a dream job - and in the current economy, working at a vacation resort hotel is not a given - if the number of guests decrease, because I've been there so long and have a fairly decent paycheck, well - they could fire me and replace me with someone who'd make a lot less than I do.

Best wishes with what sounds like what is going to be a difficult decision.

[thesandman]

Sounds a lot like the deal the Stones had with Darryl Jones.
Hell, if you don't want it, I'll take it.

[Michael Case]

Who cares about glory, you can get payed to play your bass and tour with none of the problems of being in a band. You should do it, hired gun is the way to go.

[von buck]

Originally Posted by Revvv

That sounds like the ideal life for a musician, but for me; well, I have concerns. I would be on the road for weeks at a time. I would only be home for a few weeks out of the year. I have a wife and two kids. I don't have an issue touring, but I do have an issue only being set in the dark as a nobody while a front man gets the glory for the work of an entire band. If I am playing in the studio (which I would be), living on a bus, and writing, I feel that I should be given more than a hired spot. I don't care about investing my life in someone else's music only to be replaced at the drop of a hat if one person wants to replace me. If I hit the road and sacrifice time with my family I want to know that I will still be with the group years and years later.

Get a contract, ether for the tour or as a yearly thing. Make sure if your replaced, that you will be given compensation and time to make arrangements to get home. get it in writing.
This doesn't sound like a local Craig's list band where you can get replaced on a moments notice by e-mail.
Other than that it's a job,period.how secure is your family life? How secure is your regular job? If you hate the gig, will you have something to turn back on?
Also, how devoted are you to the music itself? Is it your ideal of what you want to play, or are you setteling?
If I was hired to play with a band doing music I don't really have an investment with, fine give me my check.

Andy

[cnltb]

Originally Posted by Revvv

How many of you would accept a position touring on a National and International level as a hired bassist instead of being accepted as a member?


How many bands (signed) are using hired musicians rather than members that are considered equal partners?


I was recently invited to forfeit my present career in order to hit the road with a band that is being pushed by Sony. (Sorry, but the band name is going to remain unknown at the moment). When I asked what my involvement would be, I was told I would be hired to play bass, nothing more. Just get on the bus and play when the stage lights are lit.

That sounds like the ideal life for a musician, but for me; well, I have concerns. I would be on the road for weeks at a time. I would only be home for a few weeks out of the year. I have a wife and two kids. I don't have an issue touring, but I do have an issue only being set in the dark as a nobody while a front man gets the glory for the work of an entire band. If I am playing in the studio (which I would be), living on a bus, and writing, I feel that I should be given more than a hired spot. I don't care about investing my life in someone else's music only to be replaced at the drop of a hat if one person wants to replace me. If I hit the road and sacrifice time with my family I want to know that I will still be with the group years and years later.

While voicing my opinions and concerns I was told that many, many bands are solo projects in which the band is not a part of the label, but are employees of the band. When I asked for examples, I got answers such as Britanny Spears, John Mayer, Madonna, and every Hip Hop artist on the planet.

What bands are out there that are built of session players rather than signed members? How many session players have been with the band so long that they seem to be a permanent member?

I'd be very happy as hired gun.

[MikeBass]

I've done just that for years with some pretty major artists.
Set up in the back while the front person grabs all the fame.
They even use "hired guns" in the music videos.

It's actually a more stable career path than being in the actual band IMO.
Do the right things, and the right things will happen.

Make contacts, stay connected with the music directors of other bands you tour with- those are the guys that hire guys like you.
When they get a call to put together a band to go on the road, and you were totally OK with just doing your job and killin' every song with fat grooves and serving the artist as if it was your song, but not getting bent because it wasn't you up front....who do you think they are going to call????

Do it and enjoy it.
Make sure in your contract that there is a clause that if for what ever reason they decide to make a change, ALL of your expenses are covered to get you AND you gear home from where ever you are at the time.
Also make sure you have accommodations for simple things as strings etc....call manufactures as soon as you take the gig.

Another thing that looks REAL good to MD's, are endorsments.
When they know you have a company behind you, that's one more thing they don't have to sweat. Your gear goes down, they don't have to panic (ie PAY) getting you a new rig long term.

Also, if you do take the gig, find out if you get paid on the weeks you are not on the road (retainer of some sort).
Weekly salary or per gig pay?
Make sure your per-diem is NOT part of your show pay.
The last thing you want is to hear: "We're taking two weeks off because of blah blah blah" and you're stuck in Idaho 1000 miles from home and not getting paid for two weeks.

Be real cool and super easy to get along with. ESPECIALLY with the MD and tour manager.

If the pay is cool, you dig the music and the other players, take it.

[LowBSix]

If you don't want the gig.... Please forward the contact info....

[Beyer160]

What you're describing is pretty common.

Most record deals these days are set up so that the only band members actually signed to the label are the principals- songwriter, singer, and any instrumentalist who isn't replaceable. Typically, this means the rhythm section are signed to an employment contract with the band, not a record contract with the label. As someone else pointed out, that means you get a steady wage even if the band flops. If you're smart and/or lucky, you can get put on retainer which means you get paid when the band isn't on the road, or even if it splits up. The guys in Guns & Roses made a mint hanging out at the pool for 10 years while Axl diddled around trying to finish Chinese Democracy.