how to say "sayonara" to a band member...

[Guiseppe]

I've been rehearsing w/ as a 3-piece for 3 months. The guitarist is, frankly, the best I've ever heard, sans the "Pros"...we click completely musicwise, to the point, that he's told me "you pick it, I'll play it". We play a lot of blues oriented stuff that is entirely danceable.

The drummer has had the rehearsal space, which is something that I haven't been able to locate yet. His kit sounds like crap, and he's got issues that I think are going to wind up being problems in the near future. He can't afford to upgrade his kit - newly married, new baby - and frankly, his skills just don't cut it.

Problem is, I work with the guy, see him all the time, and I know he knows that he's not at our level, but is trying....what is the right thing to do? I'm thinking that as painful as it is, I'm going to have to be honest and tell him that a) his kit blows and b) he doesn't have the "feel" that we're looking for.

What to do?

[morf]

tell him the truth, nicely.

[Tony G]

Originally Posted by morf

tell him the truth, nicely.

+1

[WalterBush]

Tell the truth, always. There's a good chance the guy already suspects that he's not up to snuff and that there are problems, and he'll respect you more for not lying to him. You're a lot more likely to keep him as a friend that way.

[QORC]

Originally Posted by xgabriel

+1

yup. Tell him the truth. To his face. Not by phone. Not by email. have some courage.

Sure, he'll probably be mad. Nothing you can do about it. But at least some him the respect and courtesy by "throwing him over the side" the right way.

[badstonebass]

Originally Posted by Guiseppe

I've been rehearsing w/ as a 3-piece for 3 months. The guitarist is, frankly, the best I've ever heard, sans the "Pros"...we click completely musicwise, to the point, that he's told me "you pick it, I'll play it". We play a lot of blues oriented stuff that is entirely danceable.

The drummer has had the rehearsal space, which is something that I haven't been able to locate yet. His kit sounds like crap, and he's got issues that I think are going to wind up being problems in the near future. He can't afford to upgrade his kit - newly married, new baby - and frankly, his skills just don't cut it.

Problem is, I work with the guy, see him all the time, and I know he knows that he's not at our level, but is trying....what is the right thing to do? I'm thinking that as painful as it is, I'm going to have to be honest and tell him that a) his kit blows and b) he doesn't have the "feel" that we're looking for.

What to do?

Invite another drummer to practice to watch. then have him show the other guy what he's doing wrong.


Seriously, tell him up front. Then again you might not know crap yourself. Many times I have had "ideas" about the way I would like things to sound. What if the drummer thinks your bass tone sucks?

Why do you think he has ISSUES? Has he blown off practices? Does his wife call and bitch? If he hasn't blown off practice and is a good guy you may want to re-think "telling him off".

Certainly don't say "your kit blows". Talk to him about what you want as a band. See if he can make the change. See if his kit might just need new heads or whatever. In my experience the best kit to MIKE is a kit that sounds flat and dull. Maybe he has his kit set up that way.

If he is a good guy and reliable that is 99% of the battle. Chops will always improve.

[Guiseppe]

Originally Posted by badstonebass

Invite another drummer to practice to watch. then have him show the other guy what he's doing wrong.


Seriously, tell him up front. Then again you might not know crap yourself. Many times I have had "ideas" about the way I would like things to sound. What if the drummer thinks your bass tone sucks?

Why do you think he has ISSUES? Has he blown off practices? Does his wife call and bitch? If he hasn't blown off practice and is a good guy you may want to re-think "telling him off".

Certainly don't say "your kit blows". Talk to him about what you want as a band. See if he can make the change. See if his kit might just need new heads or whatever. In my experience the best kit to MIKE is a kit that sounds flat and dull. Maybe he has his kit set up that way.

If he is a good guy and reliable that is 99% of the battle. Chops will always improve.

First off, I'd bet that he's got some dependency issues brewing in the background...nothing I can put my finger on, but as a recovering addict w/ some time clean/sober I can see signs. His wife DEFINITELY does.

He's called and rescheduled rehearsals multiple times 'cuz "the wife/the baby/the car/etc". That being said, the last 4 rehearsals went off as planned and the wife and some other friends have commented that we're definitely NOT a common band. I think the drummer knows that, and why he's desperate to hang on to the gig. Hell, I know it's something special, and that's the main reason I know we need the kick a** drummer. Finding a great guitarist is cool. Finding one who totally buys off on your taste in music is cooler. Finding one w/ both of those attributes who winds up being a great friend seals the deal.

The drummer KNOWS his kit is subpar. He did buy new heads, but had to ask help to tune them...he really can't afford to buy a new kit, and it's probably best to give him some sage advice and tell him to save his $ for his family. I know we can book gigs every weekend, and he could pay for the kit in 2-3 months (if he didn't get too extravagant). I'm going to man up and tell him tomorrow.

[badstonebass]

Originally Posted by Guiseppe

we're definitely NOT a common band. I think the drummer knows that, and why he's desperate to hang on to the gig.

That may the BEST reason to keep him.

It's easier to work with someone who really WANTS it.

I am not saying keep the guy....I am just saying are you jumping the gun? You can ALWAYS get a new player.

I understand wanting to shut it down early though, before it gets harder to do.

[txbasschik]

It sounds like your drummer has a lot going on in his life. Stuff that you all may end up dealing with yourselves one day (wife/child, specifically).

Have you spoken to him about this before? If not...try to help. See if you can help him find some lessons he could barter for. It sounds like he would benefit from lessons.

He could also put aside a portion of gig earnings for new drums. You can find good deals on line.

He has this positive: He has *want to*. He is working and trying. Give him some room to improve in. Now, if he's slacking and using his family as an *excuse*, that's one thing. But if he's really working and trying hard...cut him a bit of slack and see how he does. A baby is hard work and time-consuming, and money-consuming. Its a big life adjustment. Give him time to make that adjustment.

If, after he's had sufficient time, you don't see him making a real effort to improve, etc., *then* you may need to cut him loose. But a hard worker and good person deserves time to work in.

Cherie

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by txbasschik

It sounds like your drummer has a lot going on in his life. Stuff that you all may end up dealing with yourselves one day (wife/child, specifically).

Have you spoken to him about this before? If not...try to help. See if you can help him find some lessons he could barter for. It sounds like he would benefit from lessons.

He could also put aside a portion of gig earnings for new drums. You can find good deals on line.

He has this positive: He has *want to*. He is working and trying. Give him some room to improve in. Now, if he's slacking and using his family as an *excuse*, that's one thing. But if he's really working and trying hard...cut him a bit of slack and see how he does. A baby is hard work and time-consuming, and money-consuming. Its a big life adjustment. Give him time to make that adjustment.

If, after he's had sufficient time, you don't see him making a real effort to improve, etc., *then* you may need to cut him loose. But a hard worker and good person deserves time to work in.

Cherie

These echos my thoughts except for his gear. I have yet to see gear actually be a problem with a drummer... unless his stands don't work or hardware doesn't hold. Or maybe if it's a child's set. This might sound odd but IME if a drummer can play, his kit becomes pretty much a non-issue. I've seen too many folks do too many amazing things with setups most others would consider sub-substandard. Because they could play. At the most they might want to tweak something.


Is his kit really holding him back or is it just him?

[Guiseppe]

We (Paul, the guitarist) and I have been talking this over for a few weeks. Because the drummer is a friend has been why he's still there (plus the rehearsal space).

Some more points to ponder:

• When me and the guitarist realized we had something special, the first thing we realized is that we wanted a kicka** drummer. In all honesty, if I were to find a drummer w/ the guitarists talents (on drums), I'd be the weakest link...I'm just really fortunate that he and I click so well musically.
• As well as chops, we are completely devoted to having "supreme" sound. His kit isn't even CLOSE (think new kit/cymbals/accessories).
• I know a lot re: his employment where I work, and it is spotty. He just got hired on as a temp for 4 months, and in the first week had to take 2 days off to deal w/ personal issues - there is a significant chance he'll be out of work, possibly in as little as a week.

I'm going to let him know ASAP that the fit just isn't there, and do all I can do to encourage him. He's not THAT bad...just has played only w/ the radio for years w/ no lessons or gigging experience. I know from some unsuccessful auditions that it DOES sting not to get a gig that you REALLY wanted, the best thing to do is just to be honest and encouraging. (Besides, it's never good to burn bridges. You never can tell when you need someone in a pinch...)

[Guiseppe]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

These echos my thoughts except for his gear. I have yet to see gear actually be a problem with a drummer... unless his stands don't work or hardware doesn't hold. Or maybe if it's a child's set. This might sound odd but IME if a drummer can play, his kit becomes pretty much a non-issue. I've seen too many folks do too many amazing things with setups most others would consider sub-substandard. Because they could play. At the most they might want to tweak something.


Is his kit really holding him back or is it just him?

When I was helping him tune his kit, I counted 16 drill holes in his kick drum. His high hat sounds like 2 pans...his crash sounds like...CLANK CLANK CLANK.

Honestly, for a 80's/90's type "metal" feel, he'd work (w/ a new kit). For what we do (a LOT of blues/shuffle/funk), he just doesn't catch on.

[BassJunkie730]

I'd certainly talk to him about timing - that this time in his life might not be the best to pursue a band that fully intends to go as far as it can - which means he can only look forward to seeing his wife less (or possibly a divorce) seeing his child less, having to quit his job, etc. etc.

But Seriously - to say someone has crappy drums and that's holding you back as a band is BS. for all you know the crap drums could be a part of the "uncommon" sound everyone is raving about.

Talk to him - man to man, and for the love of God do not make "your drums aren't good enough" a factor at all in the conversation. it makes him feel like he's not worthy of you guys and your "awesome" backline and it makes you out to be a douchebag - which you might be , but there's no reason to prove that to someone who honestly loves your music.

After reading more of the posts - I reiterate - whether or not you truly feel that it is his kit that holds back your sound - is irrelevant. If you are a decent band leader and you feel if he had the greatest kit on the planet that he'd still be subpar for your music and the committment in the band - then I'd move off this whole kit thing and address the real issues.

FWIW - you may get a kick a$$ drummer that for better or for worse changes your sound - so be prepared.

I believe I'm uniquely qualified to comment on this because I've been in a band that has changes drummers 4 times. Our most recent one has NO kit, had only been playing for four months when he lied to us that he's been playing for four years, has NO technique, and a few personal issues. I do love the sound that he brings to our music (half of which I write). Point is - i've had drummers with good gear, bad gear, and no gear - but as long as he can play and fit your music - the rest will fall into place.

please do not fall victim to gear snobbery. it's the same sh** that bass players have to deal with if they walk into an audition with a five string and get looks that say "uh we play blues so where's your Fender?"

[Guiseppe]

Originally Posted by BassJunkie730

I'd certainly talk to him about timing - that this time in his life might not be the best to pursue a band that fully intends to go as far as it can - which means he can only look forward to seeing his wife less (or possibly a divorce) seeing his child less, having to quit his job, etc. etc.

But Seriously - to say someone has crappy drums and that's holding you back as a band is BS. for all you know the crap drums could be a part of the "uncommon" sound everyone is raving about.

Talk to him - man to man, and for the love of God do not make "your drums aren't good enough" a factor at all in the conversation. it makes him feel like he's not worthy of you guys and your "awesome" backline and it makes you out to be a douchebag - which you might be , but there's no reason to prove that to someone who honestly loves your music.

+2, especially the last paragraph. Thanks for interjecting a little humility into my thoughts. As much as I want this project to happen, it's more important to be good people, first.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by Guiseppe

When I was helping him tune his kit, I counted 16 drill holes in his kick drum. His high hat sounds like 2 pans...his crash sounds like...CLANK CLANK CLANK.

Honestly, for a 80's/90's type "metal" feel, he'd work (w/ a new kit). For what we do (a LOT of blues/shuffle/funk), he just doesn't catch on.

So you're saying nobody could play his drums?

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by Guiseppe

+2, especially the last paragraph. Thanks for interjecting a little humility into my thoughts. As much as I want this project to happen, it's more important to be good people, first.

So you agree with what he said about the drums? He said the same thing I did

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by Guiseppe

We (Paul, the guitarist) and I have been talking this over for a few weeks. Because the drummer is a friend has been why he's still there (plus the rehearsal space).

Some more points to ponder:

• When me and the guitarist realized we had something special, the first thing we realized is that we wanted a kicka** drummer. In all honesty, if I were to find a drummer w/ the guitarists talents (on drums), I'd be the weakest link...I'm just really fortunate that he and I click so well musically.
• As well as chops, we are completely devoted to having "supreme" sound. His kit isn't even CLOSE (think new kit/cymbals/accessories).
• I know a lot re: his employment where I work, and it is spotty. He just got hired on as a temp for 4 months, and in the first week had to take 2 days off to deal w/ personal issues - there is a significant chance he'll be out of work, possibly in as little as a week.

I'm going to let him know ASAP that the fit just isn't there, and do all I can do to encourage him. He's not THAT bad...just has played only w/ the radio for years w/ no lessons or gigging experience. I know from some unsuccessful auditions that it DOES sting not to get a gig that you REALLY wanted, the best thing to do is just to be honest and encouraging. (Besides, it's never good to burn bridges. You never can tell when you need someone in a pinch...)

One more thing... how far out have you thought this out? Let's say you get what you want and it's a kickass drummer to go along with your kickass guitarist... and they get around to talking to each other about the new weakest link?

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by Guiseppe

I've been rehearsing w/ as a 3-piece for 3 months. The guitarist is, frankly, the best I've ever heard, sans the "Pros"...we click completely musicwise, to the point, that he's told me "you pick it, I'll play it". We play a lot of blues oriented stuff that is entirely danceable.

The drummer has had the rehearsal space, which is something that I haven't been able to locate yet. His kit sounds like crap, and he's got issues that I think are going to wind up being problems in the near future. He can't afford to upgrade his kit - newly married, new baby - and frankly, his skills just don't cut it.

Problem is, I work with the guy, see him all the time, and I know he knows that he's not at our level, but is trying....what is the right thing to do? I'm thinking that as painful as it is, I'm going to have to be honest and tell him that a) his kit blows and b) he doesn't have the "feel" that we're looking for.

What to do?

I picked up a drummer for one of my bands that needed one. I knew the guy a long time ago and we had been friends, but hadn't seen each other in a long time. I didn't know he played drums until I happen to see him again one day, so I asked him to try out. The audition didn't floor us, but he seemed to be adequate enough at first.

We tried him out. He was really grateful for me giving him a shot at the position. He was trying like heck to make it work, but he just couldn't play good enough, or pick up on things quick enough.

I, like you, was in a position where since I knew him, and I was the one who asked him, it was up to me to fire him. Now we could have maybe worked with him and in time he might have been able to work out. But the rest of the band had been playing for over 25 years, and he just did not have much experience. We were in no position to "grow" with him. I had to fire him and I knew he would be crushed.

I was just honest with him. I told him I appreciated everything he gave to it, but the band needed him to pick up on things quickly and we couldn't devote time to help him grow. I told him to keep at it because he obviously loved playing, and that in time he'd find the right group to play with (and in time maybe we could play again). I told him it was nothing personal since we all liked him. It was just a business decision.

Be honest with him. THE most important thing is talking with him face to face. No one ever likes to fire anyone or be fired. But you gotta do what you gotta do. The easiest way to communicate with him is to put yourself in his shoes. How would you like to be treated in this situation? It's much easier after you consider that.

[Spoiled Grape]

Are you guys practicing 2-3 times a week, recording, and gigging 4-8 times a month?

If not, why kick him out so prematurely? Give him a shot, see how it develops. If he ends up not being able to play out as much as you want, than find a replacement, but I would be hesitant to kick anyone out who really wants to be in the band.

Why not just talk to him, and tell him what you guys need from a drummer.

"Hey *drummerhere*,

We were just thinking about committment to the band, and here is what we need from you. We know you have a family, and we respect that, but this is just what the band needs, or will need in the near (re:2 year) future.

*List of necessary time committments.)

Let us know if you can do this."

That puts the ball in his court. Try to work with him, you never know when something could happen/change in your life that may put you in the same position, even temporarly. Would suck to lose a sweet gig because of it.

[Guiseppe]

Wow. You all are making this years membership fees worth it in one shot.

Regarding putting someone else on his kit that did have "that" feel...you're right. In thinking it over, the "right" drummer could pull it off. So the "sucky kit" argument is now closed. I like to think that I give my instruments their voice, and given that line of thinking, drums are no different. Thanks for opening up my thinking.

The timing issue (in the drummers life) is completely appropriate, and as a divorced guy who lost his family for 5+ years, I can see where some sage advice would be more important than the issue of band membership. I think as a musician and a friend, that would be the right thing to do.

PS The cool thing about this guitarist is that he and I are actually close friends, despite the fact that we have only known each other about 4 months. This is one of those 3-4 guys you ever have in your life that you KNOW would have your back if you needed him.

Plus, he totally grooves on my chops. Go figure.