How to tell someone they arent good [Professionally]

waytoodeep03 · #1 11-25-2007, 02:50 PM

This isnt necessarily an All Band situation. It has to do with the band that I am over in church. This one guy wants to play drums. The way he came about playing is that my other drummer(who is fantastic) got a job in another state and left so this other guy was all we had for about 1 month.

Well it turns out there is another drummer in our church who is a jazz instructor and he is pretty good. Well last month I invited him to play and he did while the sorry drummer was out of town and everyone including myself enjoyed him.

So now Im in a predicament. The fill in guy wants to play full time now and thinks he is Gods gift to drums(cocky after 1 month of playing) I would love for the jazz guy to play full time but how can I professionally tell this other guy that he isnt good and dont need him anymore. (man that sounds terrible just typing it)

Dave Martin · #2 11-25-2007, 02:57 PM

Why not just tell the fill in guy thanks for filling in, but you've got a full time guy? There's no need to tell the fill-in guy that he sucks; just tell him thanks for all the work he's done.

The worse case scenario is that the fill-in guy will ask you why he's not gonna be the full time guy - the right answer is that you prayed about it, and you feel that the Lord wants you to get someone else.

g00eY · #3 11-25-2007, 02:59 PM

Maybe you should try building him up and not just giving up on him. I wouldn't even be a bass player right now if I wasn't given a chance to play one song a week on Sunday services. I play a lot for my youth group and a lot of musicians come and go as new junior high kids come in and the older kids go off to college. We're working slowly (but surely) on a new drummer, pianist, leader. I'm the only one on the current team that is left from the last youth team. It takes a lot of work and a lot of patience, but I always just tell myself that people had to deal with my suckiness when I was new, too. Maybe you should ask yourself how you would feel if someone told you they didn't need you anymore, even if the did it nicely.

If this were some kind of outside band or something it would make sense to cut someone from the team, but you said this was for church. I don't know how it is at your church, but at my church the worship team is something that we use to help people grow. It gives people a purpose in the church aside from just going on Sundays and that gets them more connected, which is key. I understand your situation cuz it's ridiculously hard to play with a drummer that can't keep the beat on a fill or only knows two different rhythms but perhaps you could try working on his drumming with him instead of telling him he sucks.

BassChuck · #4 11-25-2007, 03:08 PM

This is always an uncomfortable situation, but its far worse when there is no money involved. Truth and honesty are always the best way. Make sure your Jazz guy is in it for the long haul, once you let the nooby go, he probably won't be back.

IanStephenson · #5 11-25-2007, 03:08 PM

If the new guy is so awesome, and chops are the only criterea then the fill in guy should be able to figure out why he didnt't get the gig... To tell him proffesionally you say "You didn't get the gig". You don't really mean proffesional here.

However if this is a church gig, is it really about who's the better player? Shouldn't church be about building the community and making everyone feel they're an important part of the family? You don't "need" this guy... Does God think this guy isn't needed?

I don't "do" church, so can't answer those questions for you, but I've done gigs with lesser players because I knew i could help them. Maybe you should see if they can share the gig.

Ian

lomo · #6 11-25-2007, 03:23 PM

Don't mean to get off track, but I stumbled onto this thread. I'm not a religious person, but I find it interesting that some posters feel the church gig should somehow differ in how people are approached vs. outside the church context. Seems to me the context is irrelevant here. If the guy deserves more of a chance in church, he deserves it just as much "outside". If it's fair/appropriate to replace him with the better drummer, same deal.

g00eY · #7 11-25-2007, 04:33 PM

Playing on a worship team shouldn't be about talent. It should be about having your heart in the right place. Thus, I think the nooby should be given a fair chance in playing so that he can develop talent, but more importantly, a heart for worship. It's not like you're getting paid to play (are you?) so it's not hurting you in anyway except you might have to endure some slightly less developed drumming. I would second seeing if they could share the playing responsibilities. Our church has 3 drummers and we try to make it so they get an even-ish amount of playing time in.

You can also think about it this way. The more you play with a less developed drummer, the more experience you get for other real life situations when you may be asked to play with musicians that may not be up to your level. I think this is an important part to being a bass player (or just a musician in general).

whizack · #8 11-25-2007, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g00eY

Playing on a worship team shouldn't be about talent. It should be about having your heart in the right place.

"The fill in guy wants to play full time now and thinks he is Gods gift to drums(cocky after 1 month of playing)"

I think the fact of the matter is that the fill in drummer doesn't actually deserve to play with them because he can't remain humble about his capabilities and work with the "band" as a team.

His heart is not in the right place. The jazz instructor seems like a better choice. I would tell you otherwise if the drummer was humble about his skills and worked with you guys closely to improve, but he doesn't seem to be doing that.

ryco · #9 11-25-2007, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IanStephenson

... I've done gigs with lesser players because I knew i could help them. Maybe you should see if they can share the gig.

This would seem to be the best solution. The Jazz guy would probably be able to help the more inexperienced player along - esp if he's a drum instructor. Maybe divvy up the tunes so the inexperienced guy has a few to play and the guy you prefer carries the majority.

This could be an all around win situation. Maybe have a meeting with all band members including the two drummers and everyone speak their piece. Being gracious, open and truthful is also a part of the learning experience in music.

mozarwasagenius · #10 11-25-2007, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lomo

Don't mean to get off track, but I stumbled onto this thread. I'm not a religious person, but I find it interesting that some posters feel the church gig should somehow differ in how people are approached vs. outside the church context. Seems to me the context is irrelevant here. If the guy deserves more of a chance in church, he deserves it just as much "outside". If it's fair/appropriate to replace him with the better drummer, same deal.

This is a very interesting thread and lomo has an perspective I've been struggling with myself. However, I think there is a difference. A secular band has a primary purpose to entertain an audience. In my opinion, a "church" or "worship" band has a primary purpose (at least in Christian circles I'm familiar with) to help a congregation worship God through song.

There is a delicate issue here in that the second-rate drummer's relationship with God might be affected depending on how the situation of his dismissal is treated. He may, for example, consider it a sign from God to leave the church.

My only point is, there is a difference in purpose between a secular band and a church band. Although, I prefer to listen to a band of skilled musicians in either situation. I also feel listening to a subrate band in a worship service can distract the congregation.

Chazinroch · #11 11-25-2007, 05:12 PM

I would be upfront and honest. Tell this individual where his/her shortcomings are. Given the situation (church) maybe the Jazz Instructor could help this individual along to the point of having the less talented drummer sit in a song or two each week to help with their development. The situation could turn around and at some point this super talented Jazz Instructor could be calling out some of the current band members about their shortcomings. Honesty with a touch of sensitivity while maintaining the self-esteem of the "less talented" drummer is the way to go. It's a church gig and it's supposed to come from the heart.

ZonGuy · #12 11-25-2007, 05:22 PM

People on the church side generally try to be more tactful when it comes to players deficiencies and will tolerate mediocrity or even incompetence which would get you handed your walking papers in the secular world. Most of the players are members playing for free and it looks better for the church, but it doesnt help the players that have shortcomings and are oblivious to them, so its ultimately unintentionally cruel.

I have been fortunate to work with a very fine music ministry where the director was not afraid to point out mistakes and areas that needed improvement. He could make it on the outside as wel as inside the Church. On the downside, I raised my rates and they immediately replaced me with a non-paid member for the foreseeable future except for the special Christmas music program.

Dave Muscato · #13 11-25-2007, 06:24 PM

I've always found that honesty is the best policy. The guy you like is a better drummer, and in the interest of sounding as good as possible, everyone (including you) wants to go with the better drummer, right? Tell him it's nothing personal and that if the situation were reversed, you would expect him to fire you for a better bassist, too. If he knows the other dude is a jazz instructor, he should understand... and if he doesn't, tell him. This doesn't sound like much of a predicament to me, no offense intended. Hope this helps.

g00eY · #14 11-25-2007, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whizack

"The fill in guy wants to play full time now and thinks he is Gods gift to drums(cocky after 1 month of playing)"

I think the fact of the matter is that the fill in drummer doesn't actually deserve to play with them because he can't remain humble about his capabilities and work with the "band" as a team.

His heart is not in the right place. The jazz instructor seems like a better choice. I would tell you otherwise if the drummer was humble about his skills and worked with you guys closely to improve, but he doesn't seem to be doing that.

Then maybe he should be confronted about it. I play with a lot of guys who really have their priorities messed up when it comes to worship. I just got back from a 5 day conference where I ended up sitting down with the electric guitarist to have a little chit chat regarding this matter. If his heart isn't in the right place now and he gets kicked off the worship team, he might never understand the heart of worship. I think the best choice would be to leave him on the team (even if he plays like once a month) in an environment where he can grow.

Some guys are saying honesty is the best choice... and it really is. Team unity in all playing situations (not just church) are key to having a successful band. The best thing to do at this point is to sit down and talk to the leadership about this. You should take into consideration what they say and then you should make and effort to sit down with both the nooby and the jazz instructor.

phektus · #15 11-25-2007, 09:35 PM

Yeah I also run same situation in our church. Drummer/Guitarist guy is way out of time. When a good player comes in, I tell the original one that he can rest for a while and be the backup. Or I give him other task (I'm also the youth leader so I have that option). It's really hard to tell them that their playing is not working nicely with the rest of the group, but what I did seems to make them understand the situation, and hopefully work on their own improvement.

We have a senior pastor that has authority to call on workers with little dedication on their ministry. Again, that's another option for me. Maybe you should also try telling somebody that has authority over you, like your worship leader.

nortonrider · #16 11-25-2007, 09:48 PM

Any way you could keep them both? Maybe rotate Sundays? Possibly put one on accoustic guitar or something while the other pounds the skins.

It's a church gig, its supposed to be about fellowship, isn't it? It sound like having the lesser drummer hang out with the jazz instructor could do him some good.

OtterOnBass · #17 11-25-2007, 10:04 PM

Once the 'fill-in' drummer hears the new drummer, he'll agree with you.

If it was my worship team, I'd approach it from this angle: "Hey, have you heard Jazz Guy? His drumming is incredible. We used him while you were out, and I think he's brings a new level of excitement/InsertAdjective to the music."

Let him be a member of the group's viewpoint and not the outsider. He wants what's best for the group, too. Keep him for the Jazz guy's sick days, and if you can, use him once a month to keep him feeling like a part of the music team and not just some substitute for rainy days. He'll realize that practicing = playing more and step up if he wants to play.

He should respect the decision of the worship team leader, but the same time, the worship team leader needs to look out for the musicians - even the beginner level ones.

capnsandwich · #18 11-25-2007, 10:08 PM

I'd rotate them. If you have a youth service or a second service on Wednesday or something have the not-so-good drummer pick that up. Have the better drummer teach the younger drummer. That's why they used to yoke the oxen together in the Bible. They would yoke a younger ox with an older, stronger ox so that the younger ox could learn and be disciplined by the older. I think you could have the same thing going on here.

Another thing you could do is to have the lesser drummer pick up timbales or the congas. He could fill in the rhythm section a little more with some different percussion. The lesser of the 2 could learn alot about dynamics and rudiments that way. Start him off small and build him up. We do that with our 2 drummers. It works out pretty good.

Munjibunga · #19 11-26-2007, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g00eY

Playing on a worship team shouldn't be about talent. It should be about having your heart in the right place. Thus, I think the nooby should be given a fair chance in playing so that he can develop talent, but more importantly, a heart for worship. It's not like you're getting paid to play (are you?) so it's not hurting you in anyway except you might have to endure some slightly less developed drumming. I would second seeing if they could share the playing responsibilities. Our church has 3 drummers and we try to make it so they get an even-ish amount of playing time in.

You can also think about it this way. The more you play with a less developed drummer, the more experience you get for other real life situations when you may be asked to play with musicians that may not be up to your level. I think this is an important part to being a bass player (or just a musician in general).

I disagree. Any god that I believed in would want its praise music to suck less, not more.

QORC · #20 11-26-2007, 06:51 AM

Replacing people because you've found the "bigger, better deal" is always a slippery slope. It's a praise band. Not a pro band. Relationships and loyalty need to be taken into account, not just chops (unless the person REALLY can't play, and if they REALLY can't play, why are they playing with ya in the first place?)>

And remember, what if they find someone better than you? How would you feel?