I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

[Colonel Monk]

Hay All,

Warning, big boohooing sob story to follow. If you don't care to read all the history/drama just go to the last paragraph.



I'm growing weary of my current band situation. I'm playing in a 4 piece band, all of them friends. The lead player sing VERY well, and has grown pretty strong on lead guitar. Rhythm player is our main songwriter and vocalist, can play solid rhythm and at times has a decent voice. Drummer is a lifetime musician who is kinda new to drums, but doing a good job considering we played without a drummer for 3.5 years.

3 of us have been playing together for 4 years, only in the past several months have we finally gotten a practice space and plan to do some gigs soon.

We have a pretty extensive catalog of decent/good/excellent originals, which is a first for me. I live over an hour away from the practice space (which is where everyone else in the band lives) and so I do this commute 5-6 times a month for practice. I know it doesn't sound like much practice but we typically rehearse 8 - 10 hours, as well as practice at home.

I have a 40 - 50 hour a week professional job, so I'm damn busy.

I supply the PA, most of the cables, repair cables, and for instance tonight I am replacing a broken nut for 1 the lead players' guitars, grattis, in my non-existent spare time.

I have very little personal life other than this band at the moment and so our practices are the social event of my week, and each weekend is pretty much planned around it.

So needless to say, I'm committed to making this band work, and given the commute and the fact that I don't write the songs (and therefore have alot of songs to learn and maintain) I am the hardest working member of this band.

In spite of this, I don't feel respected by the other band members. When I try to suggest something to help tighten up the loose songwriting, it's usually met with little or no comment, like "we don't need your input" or "whatever". Not those actual words, just the sentiment.

Though I may not have as much raw talent as a songwriter, I have been playing bass and writing parts for over 20 years. Both guitar players have known and played together almost the entire time they've been playing music, maybe 7 years.

Since we have been playing together (2003) I've pretty stayed out of the writing aspect. As a result, the songs have always been a bit of a moving target -- they (guitars) would jam on them from week to week without much structure definition. I learn to play it one way one week, then next week it changes midsong. I didn't mind that so much in the beginning because we were just jamming, but if we are going to gig THIS MUST CHANGE.

I cannot tell you how often I've tried to explain to our lead vocal/rhythm guitar/chief songwriter that I cannot foretell the future, therefore we will never be able to play consistently if the songs are not consistent, with Verse part becoming Chorus, Bridge becoming Verse and **** like that. We ARE a jammy band, which I like, and that works as long as you are aware what part comes next -- you settle in, hold down the low end, wait for the signal, and you know where you're going. But these complete changes of song are like driving toward an intersection with your eyes closed, and it's ridiculous.

This week I took some recent rehearsal recordings from last practice and wrote out the song structure (Intro, Verse, Chorus, ETC) and wrote out my parts in tab, which helps me remember my parts, especially if we shelve a song for a while. I forwarded the structure along to other band members saying "Hey, this worked well last week and we agreed to play it like this so let's go with this. I did not get a single comment back. No "right ons", or "good work", or "cool, lets try it"....

Last night, one of the songs in question came up, and the songwriter started fooling around with the song AGAIN (this has been going on for 2 years on this song). We had played it the same way for over a month, and since I made a point of mentioning that NOW we have to **** it all up and change it again.

I looked at him "you have to be kidding" because I finally had a good part written and knew that my timing would be good, etc. We played the song and I of course did not hit all the changes, and asked him why we have to change it again now that it's been consistent. "Well, we don't want to paint ourselves into a corner, you need to be able to follow along".

I'm dying to know what you all think of this.

Sorry about the long rant.

Col Monk.

[hartke20g]

i hate when people do that. my old drummer could never remember or be bothered to write down a single beat to a song. we'd start a song i know like the back of my hand, and it'd sound like a completely different song because of this. needless to say, he's not around anymore. i'm not saying booting someone/leaving is the answer, but it's definitely a possibility, so don't throw that option out yet. but trying to solve this calmly first would be best, since they don't seem like total dirtbags. good luck.

[Depth_Charge]

Unless they are paying you, it shouldn't be someone elses way all the time, regardless what you do for the band.

I'd say something to em. Set a time line for improvement. Maybe threaten to stop the handouts and reduce practicing until I saw improvement, since it sounds like lots of wheel spinning anyway, and your time is definately worth more than that!

They might not like it, but at the moment you're not liking it either and fairs fair. Them ditching you could be a blessing in disguise.

Have you decided on either recording and performing "static" CD's and songs or free jamming and recording live shows etc??

Either way I think they should listen to and experiment with at least some of your ideas and treat you as a contributing band member.

Not because you know this or that, but because you contribute the low end to the combined noise that your band makes and might have some good ideas to bring to the table.

Most of the ideas that got bandied about in my original sessions often got used later on other other songs. Thats more productive than changing a song week in and out IMO too. wow, lots of IMO's. Haha

[BigMac5]

You have to demand respect as a musician from the other members. It's like everything in life, people will try to dismiss you unless you stand up for yourself. Demand your place in the band in a confident adult way.

[jsbachonbass]

Originally Posted by Colonel Monk

Hay All,


I supply the PA, most of the cables, repair cables, and for instance tonight I am replacing a broken nut for 1 the lead players' guitars, grattis, in my non-existent spare time.

Col Monk.

Here is the key. I think you should show up to practice one time without your PA.
Better yet, if it is possible, set up your own rehearsal space near where you live, set up your PA, and tell the 3 of them to drive an hour to your rehearsal space, because you don't want to set up and tear down the PA anymore for free.
I think they might get the point.

[BellBottomBlues]

I feel your pain, and they're dicks.

However, try and put yourself in their shoes for a moment. You've been together for several years, and you said you pretty much haven't collaborated much with the song writing. They might have egos, and a) don't want to let anyone else intrude on 'their thing' or b) they don't trust your song writing ability.

Personally, I wouldn't offer that much input on the songs they write if they're just going to ignore you. Sometimes direct confrontation will lead to resentment between members and ensure a lineup change in the foreseeable future. I personally suggest writing a few songs by yourself, or have the guitarist you're better friends with (or even another friend who plays guitar) and work out the kinks. Then present the songs to your band. If you know they're worth their salt, or are close to it, and the band members basically give you the finger, pack your bags.

As for the messing around with the song structure, tell them that you want to be professional and actual follow musical theory and progression. My current band is a ridiculously self pretentious jam band with 20 minute solos. We never rehearse. And people love us. I just happen to play off well with my guitarist (we're a three piece) which may or not be the case with you. Group dynamics is EXTREMELY important in a jam band or it comes off as rubbish because you all have to be comfortable with each and feed off of each other's music.

Thats my two cents.

[ric1312]

Originally Posted by Colonel Monk

Hay All,

Warning, big boohooing sob story to follow. If you don't care to read all the history/drama just go to the last paragraph.



I'm growing weary of my current band situation. I'm playing in a 4 piece band, all of them friends. The lead player sing VERY well, and has grown pretty strong on lead guitar. Rhythm player is our main songwriter and vocalist, can play solid rhythm and at times has a decent voice. Drummer is a lifetime musician who is kinda new to drums, but doing a good job considering we played without a drummer for 3.5 years.

3 of us have been playing together for 4 years, only in the past several months have we finally gotten a practice space and plan to do some gigs soon.

We have a pretty extensive catalog of decent/good/excellent originals, which is a first for me. I live over an hour away from the practice space (which is where everyone else in the band lives) and so I do this commute 5-6 times a month for practice. I know it doesn't sound like much practice but we typically rehearse 8 - 10 hours, as well as practice at home.

I have a 40 - 50 hour a week professional job, so I'm damn busy.

I supply the PA, most of the cables, repair cables, and for instance tonight I am replacing a broken nut for 1 the lead players' guitars, grattis, in my non-existent spare time.

I have very little personal life other than this band at the moment and so our practices are the social event of my week, and each weekend is pretty much planned around it.

So needless to say, I'm committed to making this band work, and given the commute and the fact that I don't write the songs (and therefore have alot of songs to learn and maintain) I am the hardest working member of this band.

In spite of this, I don't feel respected by the other band members. When I try to suggest something to help tighten up the loose songwriting, it's usually met with little or no comment, like "we don't need your input" or "whatever". Not those actual words, just the sentiment.

Though I may not have as much raw talent as a songwriter, I have been playing bass and writing parts for over 20 years. Both guitar players have known and played together almost the entire time they've been playing music, maybe 7 years.

Since we have been playing together (2003) I've pretty stayed out of the writing aspect. As a result, the songs have always been a bit of a moving target -- they (guitars) would jam on them from week to week without much structure definition. I learn to play it one way one week, then next week it changes midsong. I didn't mind that so much in the beginning because we were just jamming, but if we are going to gig THIS MUST CHANGE.

I cannot tell you how often I've tried to explain to our lead vocal/rhythm guitar/chief songwriter that I cannot foretell the future, therefore we will never be able to play consistently if the songs are not consistent, with Verse part becoming Chorus, Bridge becoming Verse and **** like that. We ARE a jammy band, which I like, and that works as long as you are aware what part comes next -- you settle in, hold down the low end, wait for the signal, and you know where you're going. But these complete changes of song are like driving toward an intersection with your eyes closed, and it's ridiculous.

This week I took some recent rehearsal recordings from last practice and wrote out the song structure (Intro, Verse, Chorus, ETC) and wrote out my parts in tab, which helps me remember my parts, especially if we shelve a song for a while. I forwarded the structure along to other band members saying "Hey, this worked well last week and we agreed to play it like this so let's go with this. I did not get a single comment back. No "right ons", or "good work", or "cool, lets try it"....

Last night, one of the songs in question came up, and the songwriter started fooling around with the song AGAIN (this has been going on for 2 years on this song). We had played it the same way for over a month, and since I made a point of mentioning that NOW we have to **** it all up and change it again.

I looked at him "you have to be kidding" because I finally had a good part written and knew that my timing would be good, etc. We played the song and I of course did not hit all the changes, and asked him why we have to change it again now that it's been consistent. "Well, we don't want to paint ourselves into a corner, you need to be able to follow along".

I'm dying to know what you all think of this.

Sorry about the long rant.

Col Monk.

Well if the picture you paint is dead on accurate, then this band is not worth your time. they will never go anywhere writing songs and changing them that drastically, constantly. There comes a time when you should say it's done, here is the verse, chorus, bridge. And that should be based on solid song writing skills and honest thought and opinion on how the song sounds better as a whole.

Not, because the song writer can't remember structure (probably why I knew someone like this) or has delusions that people remember a song if it's tottally different than the one you played last show.

Ask yourself this about the songs, are they catchy? Can you picture them on the radio? Or at least being catchy enough that fans think you should be on the radio?

Do, the songs have definate hooks that people recognize that are not in the band?

Do the songs build tension to the expected release. AKA as the Chorus/Main hook.

A lot of song writers think they are better than they are. One of the things that will make mediocre songs better is examining the parts and finding the right structure that empasizes the good points of the song. So, if they are constantly changing the stucture they are in effect ruining the song. A big component of song structure is that the structure aids the listener and draws them and makes them expect parts. It's like putting someone in a hypnotic trance.

If you add a bunch of extra jamming on a song all it does is add a bunch of fat that waters it down and blurs the hooks.

If you play the same song five times and has five different structures then you are not playing a song. You are playing 5 similar jams.

I know some musicians actually do start and like jam bands. (Bands that just go off with no preconcieved structure) I've found however that a lot of audiences get bored with that fairly quickly. And honestly how many jam bands do you know that make it?

I think a lot of bands that call themselves jam bands simply don't have the discipline to sit down and actually make a song with hooks and structure and commit it to memory.

The amount of time you put into it, it's obviously more than a fun time hobby for you. It seems you want it to go somewhere or at least get something out of it. I'd question the worth of a band that either couldn't or didn't bother to find a drummer for 3.5 years.

I know some bands start off when no one can really play and work it up from there though.

Also, I'm not saying you have to be jerk or make a scene, but them brushing you off isn't cool. You should make it a point to have a band meeting and tell them exactly how you feel.

I don't know about where you live, but here bass players are at a premium for rock bands. And if you are really a bass player and not a guitar player doing it for a gig all the better.

I think it's downright retarded that they expect you to just simply follow changes that are made up the day of. That's just never going to work live.

[Bass Mule]

Seriously, all the replies have been good, but you really need to
talk to your band!

Tell them everything you just told us in the original post, before the pressure of this situation gets so high you'll blow up. And that's just not cool.

[lonotes]

I understand exactly where you're coming from. I play with a guy that is a fairly prolific writer. In the early days of our association, he was so bad at never playing the song the same way twice, that I had to actually refuse to even try to write a bass part to one of his songs until he had committed it to tape. Then I could write a part to go with that tape, and everything was great. Taping did two things. First, it allowed me to have a consistent part, so that I may try different things, until I was satisfied. Second, it forced him to realize that not everyone could hear the four of five options that he had bouncing around inside his head. Each time he would play a song, he would play a different part, or sometimes he would switch from one part to another in mid verse. By multitracking his parts, I could hear all of his ideas, and determine my direction.

Another approach might be to try skipping a couple of rehearsals. Justify it to them by saying that since they never play the same song the same way twice, your presence at rehearsal is unnecessary. If your to be expected to "go with the flow" at a gig, even if the flow is totally different from the way the song was played at rehearsal, why waste your time? Maybe they'll get the message, maybe they won't. Either way, they will know where you stand.

It's an aggravating position to be in. I know, been there, done that. Good luck.

[Colonel Monk]

Hey guys:

Thanks for the replies so far. It's true that I have been in the backseat of the songwriting all along, so I don't expect to have much command over it at this point. But at what point do you consider a song DONE?

Our lead player's songs are well constructed and there is never any doubt where they are headed. Though he pretends to sympathize with me on the songwriter's tunes but he rarely plays rhythm so the random changes don't affect him -- he does guitar fills and noodles and so for him it's no big deal -- but I need him to back me up.

We have a computer with ProTools at the space, so we typically record everything we play. Alot of it gets deleted but this way we just throw down and don't get recording "stage fright". So I have evidence of how the songs change from week to week and I am hyper-aware of it because it's my bass playing that sounds out of place when the entire song structure changes at the whim of songwriter.

What's worse, is that since I'm the only bass player he's ever played with he thinks that I'm the problem. "Why can't you just follow along"? THIS is the thing I'm really asking you guys about. Does this make sense to any of you?

When learning a song, of course you "follow along". And usually you miss the changes by a note or two because you're LEARNING the song. But I don't know many bassplayers that want to constantly be learning the same song over and over. At some point you NEED the song structure to stop changing so that you can make it tight. This is even more necessary since we want to have some good jams in the songs as well.

This guy doesn't ever come to practice and say "Hey I've been making some changes to the structure of song x, here's a sheet and we're going to play it like this now." He acts like he's changed nothing, when in fact he has changed nearly everything.

I showed him on of the charts last month: Intro 4x, Verse 6X, Chorus 4X, etc and he looked at it like it was an algebra test.

I could threaten and bring my PA home (which remains set up at practice hall) and though the message might get thru it's a bit heavy-handed. Again, we're friends and so I'd prefer to make the point without having the entire situation implode on itself.

So, in typical wordy fashion I've explained it a bit further. The question is, how can I explain to him that he is way off base?

Does anyone here thing that his "follow along" mantra has any basis?

Thanks,

Col Monk

[lonotes]

The question is, how can I explain to him that he is way off base?


Well, you have the answer already at hand. Pro Tools. If you're already recording the sessions, don't delete them. If you need the space on the hard drive, mix them down to a two-track, and/or archive them to cd or dvd, but don't delete them entirely. Besides, if you're constantly changing the song, sometimes good ideas can get lost. If you have a recording of each session, you can review them to see what really works and what doesn't. No offense meant here, but to me it sounds like a perfect opportunity is being missed overlooked.

[ric1312]

Next time he says can't you just follow along?, tell him you are a bass player not a psychic.

Seriously though, unless you have perfect pitch and can hear exacty what key hes in as soon as he changes, if you play out this way it will be train wreck.

He expects you to watch for changes at shows and pay that close of attention to him? What if you can't see his fret board, what if he makes a mistake and gets lost?

No the follow along thing is pure BS, unless you are intentionally doing free form jamming. It will never sound tight.

I got an idea give him a dose of his own medicine. Write a song with a good five parts, one of them a noticeable chorus. Then tell him you just want him to play no one else. Don't stop and show him the parts or explain anything. Tell him, "just follow along, you are good player right?"

After a few minutes when he seems to be getting it take a few second break for a drink of water.

Then start to play it again and tottaly change where parts go, you even be sneaky and keep them in the same place but make them alternately longer or shorter part for part. Make it a point to angle your fretboard so it's hard to see.

When he finally blows his top, and he will. Just smile and say, "that's what you put me through every practice."

Up to that point you should have been tottally serious so he doesn't catch on to your trick.

My wife used to play with a guitar player/songwriter chick like this. My wife took classical piano for many years with a teacher cracking her knuckels when she was off time, it drove her nuts. They would literally get in shouting matches, because of the, "can't you just follow me?" approach.

My wife is an accomplished musician on both piano and guitar and can play a bass pretty good too, even she can't follow along and guess a constantly changing structure.

[Colonel Monk]

Originally Posted by Bass Mule

Seriously, all the replies have been good, but you really need to talk to your band!

Tell them everything you just told us in the original post, before the pressure of this situation gets so high you'll blow up. And that's just not cool.

Yah, we have talked about it. That's why I continue to have a stroke every time the songs are changed again.

I would have hoped the others' respect me enough to back me up. Thurs night though, they looked at each other and said "We could be watching the ball game right now"... I nearly packed up my stuff right then, because all they needed to do was back me up and we would have moved on.

Actually, after trying the song the new way (and me being uncooperative on purpose -- there was no way I was going to indulge this behavior again, as I felt it was purposely disrespectful) we went back to the way I charted it and it was probably better than ever. Sometimes it helps focus to be mad at something

Regarding the comments by Ric:

I think the songs are good. I've played with a few bands over the years but NONE had a catalog of songs that we have.

Our jams don't go into the stratosphere with no song structure - they are more like an extended solo with dynamics for a few minutes that then come back to the hook, then finish. You know, basic stuff.

out

[jsbachonbass]

Originally Posted by Colonel Monk

Hey guys:

I could threaten and bring my PA home (which remains set up at practice hall) and though the message might get thru it's a bit heavy-handed. Again, we're friends and so I'd prefer to make the point without having the entire situation implode on itself.

Col Monk

Don't threaten to do it, just do it. Go pack it up, and if they ask, tell them you need it for something else. Act like it's nothing.

Then, remain unavailable for a couple of weeks.

When they call you about the next rehearsal, tell them everything you need from them, such as finalizing the songs, or providing a steady rhythm part that you can follow along to.and it has to be resolved before you attend practice again with your PA. If they want you to just be the bass player and follow along, then they can provide their own PA.

The point is, you are the one doing the driving and providing the PA. Are they paying you anything for the PA, or gas money? You shouldn't have to be contributing so much and get back so little. MY philosophy is the person who controls the PA usually controls the band, or at least has a majority vote.

You aren't crazy.. I hate following along in a cover band, when the singer/guitarists decides to go into and extended solo and doesn't give any clues when he once tocome back into the song. I couldn't imagine doing it with original songs

[Colonel Monk]

Originally Posted by ric1312

Next time he says can't you just follow along?, tell him you are a bass player not a psychic.

Seriously though, unless you have perfect pitch and can hear exacty what key hes in as soon as he changes, if you play out this way it will be train wreck.

Ha, I actually have told him that! It's too true though. We have noodled around on these songs long enough already. I feel that I am owed respect for having indulged the creativity as long as I have.

I'll continue to jam on the new tunes; it's how we write the songs. But eventually the songs must solidify into something that can be ripped live at a show without a single doubt.

out

[lonotes]

Is it possible that the songs can be compartmentalized into an A section, B section, and so on? Rearrange and/or repeat the sections at will, but at least be consistent (and therefore, predictable ) within each section?

[ric1312]

Don't know the context or delivery, but if a band member says , "I could be, or I'd rather, be watching the ball game." I either quit the band of kick him.

I had members who missed practice because of ball games, yet try to put on airs that they want to, "do something with the music." It pissed me off to no end particularly because I could care less about watching sports, and don't understand undercutting worthwhile endeavors to watch a game.

[Deacon_Blues]

I play in a reggae band which functions like that. No forms written on paper or anything, but the song structures seldom change too much despite that.

I've found that you have to have some kind of consistency in the forms (AABABCBB) or so, to make things work well and sound somewhat professional. Everyone should be able to read a simple form chart. You cannot really "just follow along" if you don't know which part is coming next. The worst thing is when you think you know which part that will come next but suddenly notice it isn't that one...

That been said, I also enjoy to throw in an extra chorus, a solo or a bridge whenever I think it would fit. It's in a conflict with what I talked about above, but it's doable if you or someone else lead the song into the parts you want to be played next. The key is that everyone in the band should hear in advance which part will come next. I think the bass is the best lead instrument in this perspective , but if someone else lead the song he should show (in one way or another but clearly enough) which part should come next. But of course, this kind of song modifications won't work in all bands or music styles.

In other words, I don't think changing the forms from time to time is such a big issue, but talk to the band about this leading the song thing - if they want to change the forms from time to time, that's ok only if they make everyone else feel comfortable with it.

Only my 0.02...

Well one more thing. Remember to listen to the other players. Remind the other band members of it too.

[BigOleBoogie]

Look, you can do the whole power play "I have the PA, I do this for you" crap. They do the "I write the songs" crap already.

You all could be children about it. Don't, it will deteriarate the friendship and chip it away to nothing.

Ask that these songs that are "done" be set in stone by the next practice and if the creative bug strikes again move onto another song, the possibilities are ENDLESS and painting ones self into a corner can be looked at in a different light by NOT moving on and writing another song. By changing the same song's arrangement it's the equivalent of chasing one's tail.

You guys hope to do gigs soon but don't let someone else set you up for failure simply because you cannot predict what arrangement he will do next just as you wouldn't be unpredictable via something with the PA or not making the drive to practice or repairs.

Everyone makes the contributions to a band, a project. Those contributions are either for the best of the band, the project or they hinder what's best for the band, the project friends or not.

[lonotes]

Also, to "just follow along" you have to be behind. You say that you live an hour away from all of the others? Are they getting together when you're not there, and working out these changes, and not telling you of them? That would certainly be disrespectful of you. Or are they spontaneous changes? If so, you're just herding cats, and that never works. Either way, there has to be some communication.