I need to break my keyboardist out of his classically trained box.

Petary791 · #1 08-07-2006, 09:18 AM

My band is really doin well (in my opinion at least.) We've yet to gig, but we've been recording some awesome originals. Each member of our trio writes very different, but not too different to span across a ton of genres, styles of music. The drummer plays guitar, and he's one of those guitarists who doesn't know theory so he just throws his fingers around til something sounds good, and it works most of the time. I know a lot of theory, so most of the stuff I write has a sort of jazzy feel to it. Our keyboardist has been trained classically for 10 years (since he was 7) and writes very PIANO driven rock songs.

We've been writing songs where I ask him to play a Rhodes or Hammond part. He has trouble knowing what to play because he's so used to being the front guy. I'm not saying that he's ego-tistical, but anyone that's ever worked with a pianist knows what i'm talking about. Our newest song, we want him to play vibes on. He's really lost, and he admits it. Can you guys give me some advice to teach him some more guitar driven rock songs with keys taking the backseat?

Reccomended discography would be good too. I think i'm gonna give him some Yes, Zappa, and a nu-Jazz Fusion band called The Mercury Program (vibes on every song.)

jady · #2 08-07-2006, 02:32 PM

Classically trained keyboardist are used to being the only guy there. they are trained from the get go to play the bassline, melody, countermelody, chords, and set up the rythmic feel all by themselves. Thats a lot of habits to break.

The only thing he can do is listen, and then listen, and if that doesnt work have him try listening.

Check out lots of 70's recordings like steely dan, doobie brothers, etc. there are lots of really cool rhodes/organ parts that are just tasty comping of chords.

If that doesnt work, tie his left hand to his left leg, HAH!!!! comp a bassline now keyboard boy!!!!!

Petary791 · #3 08-07-2006, 02:40 PM

I don't need to worry about basslines from him. I already broke that habit.

MysticMichael · #4 08-07-2006, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jady

Classically trained keyboardist are used to being the only guy there. they are trained from the get go to play the bassline, melody, countermelody, chords, and set up the rythmic feel all by themselves. Thats a lot of habits to break.

The only thing he can do is listen, and then listen, and if that doesnt work have him try listening.

Check out lots of 70's recordings like steely dan, doobie brothers, etc. there are lots of really cool rhodes/organ parts that are just tasty comping of chords.

If that doesnt work, tie his left hand to his left leg, HAH!!!! comp a bassline now keyboard boy!!!!!

Bingo. I'm guessing that he's still pretty young & inexperienced. Get him to realize that "less is more". He should get in the habit of layering his parts in with the rest of the band - just as everyone else has to do, i.e. play on the off-beat, "play" the rests, etc.

MM

AdlerAugen · #5 08-10-2006, 05:45 AM

poor keuboardist...I'm classically trained m'self and I'm wondering at some of the beatles' scores, 'how did he lower himself to play something on piano this danged easy!?' I've already at 17 done many, many piano recitals and played for church, school, banquets, and as background at school craftfair, and I know it will be VERY hard for a raised keyboardist to take the backseat. Instead of forcing him to do just vibes, perhaps you can give him a little lee-way and let him improv or give him a bassline that complements the bass-guitar but isn't the same. Don't let him get bored is all I'm sayin, 'cause bored players aren't focused and aren't motivated.

TheDarkReaver · #6 08-10-2006, 06:07 AM

throw him a bone. give him a solo

Dkerwood · #7 08-10-2006, 09:28 AM

I run into this with my church praise team. Every once in a while, I just want to sustained organ notes droning through the whole song, maybe with a passing tone or two to indicate movement through chords. I mean, a solid PAD, you know?

Well, my two keyboardists are both classically trained, so it's very hard for them when I say "hey, try playing less" or "don't use your left hand" or "try something less rhythmic."

But you know what I've discovered? Classically trained musicians are musicians, too. All we need to do is help them learn. I once played with an amazing pianist who was in his fourties. All he had ever done involved sheet music - even if it was pop accompaniment, it was always done with music. We put chords in front of him, and although he knew how to play the chords, he was lost on other details - rhythms, voicings, style... It was really cool to watch him grow.

Sounds like your guy is already on the right track and is willing to expand himself into our world (which is more than I can say about a lot of US expanding into the classical world). Help him to learn.

natselection · #8 08-10-2006, 11:47 AM

tell him to watch School of Rock =D. Remember with that chinese kid...

AdlerAugen · #9 08-10-2006, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dkerwood

We put chords in front of him, and although he knew how to play the chords, he was lost on other details - rhythms, voicings, style... It was really cool to watch him grow.

Doing something should be easy if you know the chords and the tune of the song...only problem is getting someone to write out the chords for me when I want to accompany the praise team on the piano...I usually end up winging it. I'm just glad my teacher is big on 'musical phases' like scales, arpeggios, chords, etc...including major/minor diminished/augmented dominant 7th/diminished 7th etc...so even classically trained musicians should be able to wing it once in a while.

Winemule · #10 08-10-2006, 03:42 PM

This has been most interesting, since my problem with classically trained pianists doesn't seem to be anyone else's problem. Mine is always the same. Sometime in the first ten minutes I have to stop the proceedings and say: "You're posture is correct, and you've got your fingers curved just so, AND YOU'RE PLAYING RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE EFFIN' BEAT!
You gotta lean in and push it a little!"

Dkerwood · #11 08-11-2006, 03:13 AM

Dude, I know exactly your pain. No groove whatsoever.

I was watching "America's Got Talent" last night (yeah, I was bored), and this amazing little girl got up to play classical piano. 8 years old, she's amazing. Then she stands up, kicks the bench over, and starts to play a boogie-ish rhythm. I say boogie "ish" because it's still straight as a board. The backup band came in with a great groove, and there she was, still playing right down the middle... completely oblivious.

Of course, she was 8. But that didn't ease the pain of hearing a pianist totally out of the pocket.

SnoMan · #12 08-11-2006, 08:34 AM

MysticMichael · #13 08-12-2006, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dkerwood

But that didn't ease the pain of hearing a pianist totally out of the pocket.

I hear ya. I used to play with this classically-trained pianist. Dude could play Chopin, Rachmaninoff - whatever you put in front of him...except that when playing by ear with a band, he would drop beats - a lot...

So the band would be playing in 4/4...and everyone once in awhile - from out of the blue - he would throw in a measure of 3/4 or even like 3.5/4 - so that he'd be on the first downbeat of the next measure while the rest of us where still playing the last upbeat of the previous measure...

Worst part of it was...he couldn't even hear it! Made it really tough when he'd be teaching me a new tune...and I couldn't seem to figure out what the heck he was doing rhythmically...

MM

Spector_Ray · #14 08-12-2006, 09:12 PM

He's a young guy and it's a matter of learning. When referring to playing in a band, Billy Sheehan always stresses the importance of playing with the band instead of competing against them. Not to say he's intentionally competing with you, it's the way it's coming off. He needs to practice rhythm and playing the root.

AdlerAugen · #15 08-12-2006, 10:19 PM

If he competes against the band, he must've not been in any school's concert band or anything like that, because our instructor is really heavy on any section that gets off-beat or somethin like that. (trumpets RULE you too!) (Not just basses!)

Petary791 · #16 08-13-2006, 11:02 AM

He's not that bad in that sense, we're just trying to get him to write less and more organ or synth oriented parts, instead of grand piano type parts.

FaithNoMan · #17 08-13-2006, 01:20 PM

Faith No More's keyboardist, Roddy Bottum, was classically trained, and unlike many other keyboardists in bands, his parts added this awesome aura around the bassline and drums without getting in the way or taking away from the rocky edge of the music.

He wasn't cheesy at all, and still managed to blend in perfectly.

CrazyArcher · #18 08-13-2006, 01:33 PM

Deep Purple and similar stuff should be the answer. If it fails, I don't know how to help you...

Vandelay · #19 08-13-2006, 01:45 PM

If he's doing Hammond parts, have him listen to some Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers, Wallflowers, etc. A lot of times those guys are just sustaining one chord over an entire chord progression, often using just 2 or 3 fingers of the right hand.