The "I'm only in it for the money" club

[the yeti]

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

Confused--- this is the mgt forum

right, in the op nortonrider cited the large number of posts about money. *if* he spends a lot of time in here as opposed to humor, technique, effects, etc, he should see more posts about money. further, if he spends a majority of time in here it *could* lead to the view that musicians are preoccupied with money, which i believe is incorrect even for self-declared prostitutes such as myself.

[the yeti]

Originally Posted by bumperbass

After agonizingly reading all 9 pages, the original post was a blurred, stirred up mess.
I thought I'd just answer each question:
1. I judge my musicianship by the vibe and feedback I get from the other guys and the crowd when we're on stage. I never play every song the same way every night. Playing at the house will never replace gigging on stage because without that vibe going on, you'll never venture into uncharted territory....and venturing into uncharted territory means having a blast AND developing your chops.
2.&3. are the same question. I play to make myself happy; to escape, and that place I escape to has OTHER PEOPLE (the crowd) that are escaping, too, and I want to make their escape enjoyable. After all, it's the band and the crowd that's there, so make it fun. To add my own personal addition to this, I'd have to say that over the last 40+ years, those I have performed with are the closest relationships I've had. There is a comradery in performing with others that someone who's never done it can understand.
4. I'd say 100% of the people on this forum could say music moves them. Not a very good question, IMO.
5. It's fun. Of course it's fun or I wouldn't do it. It's a hobby because it's not my day job.
6. I am not playing for free. The cost of doing business has already been discussed, so I'm not going to go through a laundry list again. I have zero interest in jamming with friends (as in 'down in the basement/livingroom'). That's never been productive for me. More often than not, it's playing all the songs I've played 10,000 times while consuming beer to the point of being tipsy (and I got over that like 25 years ago?). I am paying for a new vehicle to replace my 10 year old model that has 140,000 miles on it. I am maintaining my gear. I pay for extra entertainment for my family. Sometimes I'll just say "I'll get this" at the cash register. I play in clubs. I expect to get paid for my services. Just because I like to do something is no reason to do it for free. I repair laptops, too. I enjoy the END RESULT...a working laptop for a friend/customer. Do I do it for free? Nope. A good friend of mine likes to work on cars. Does he do it for free? Nope.

nice reply.

[phillybass101]

From day one I picked it up to be a performer. It's in my DNA. I can recall my first real band. I made like $10.00 a gig. It was a funk/horn band and we had like 10 members and a shady manager who used to get his hair permed. My first real musical experience was a real cliche to include a manager who looked and acted liked a pimp. LOL!!! I didn't make much money but I had a blast. I have had gigs where I was paid extremely well and stayed in First Class Hotels and other gigs where I got stiffed for my pay. For me it's a labor of love. I do however have a good paying day job and I'm no longer subject to the pimps and greasy characters out there. If I had to rely on my bass playing for a living I'd have another kind of attitude and would be much more of a business man in my dealings.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by lowfreq33

This last statement rings very true. When someone asks you to play for little or no money they're telling you what they think you're worth. When you take the gig you're telling them they're right.

Earlier this year I took a gig, $350 for 4 nights in Denver. Travel and hotel covered, nothing else. That's a little less than my normal minimum, but the guitarist is a friend, and I hadn't been to Denver in awhile, plus I'd have a chance to catch up with a few friends in the area.

Next thing I know the "Artist" wants me to do 5 days in Wisconsin for $350, at a club that I play with my own band. Now I know what this club's top pay is (because we get it), and I know what I pay my guys when we go there. Based on the math I know that he's low-balling the band so he can take a larger share, so I have to turn it down. Not only is that gig NOT worth $350, if I take the gig I'm confirming that I'm not worth much as a player.

Someone told me early in my career, "If you're good at something, there are a lot of people in this town who will be happy to 'let you' do it. Charge what you're worth."

EXACTLY.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by LiquidMidnight

My God, I absolutely HATE when people ask that question. Take about a loaded question! If you say "Yes," you're a conceited ass and if you say "No," you're an unconfident twerp. I'm confident in my abilities, but I don't go around thinking I'm the second-coming of Jaco to free the bass world from the untetered masses.

Besides, I just think it's a weird question with which to begin. When I meet an accountant, dance studio instructor, operations manager, or bus driver, the first thing out of my mouth regarding their profession isn't, "So are you any good?"

[/soapbox]

I don't get that question but the one observation I've gotten from strangers that I've always found weird was the assumption, after talking to me about non-musical stuff and finding out I'm a musician is "Cool... you play Jazz, right?".

And they're proud that they figured me out. Despite me not being a Jazz musician.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by Russell L

I know, it's awkward. I'm just thinking maybe he didn't MEAN for it to be this way.

Based on his ensuing comments I'd still have to disagree... there seems to be a pretty clear agenda.

[Bass_Pounder]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

Based on his ensuing comments I'd still have to disagree... there seems to be a pretty clear agenda.

Very clear............

Then add to that a "personal resume" that only has 12 gigs in 30 years of playing, and well - make your own conclusions from there

[Biggbass]

I just want to get paid by the note.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsPzJALbR6c

[Factor88]

Originally Posted by LiquidMidnight

When it comes to music, I can fish for leisure, but fishing doesn't take years of studying and paying dues.

Well fishing itself might not, but consistently catching fish certainly does.....

How's that for an inane contribution to this thread?

[Barisaxman]

I'll play

How many guys here judge their musicianship by the amount of "gigs' they do or the amount of money that they make?

Not I, I don't consider myself anywhere near great at this. But I am good enough that I can make a decent amount of "fun" money each year by playing with others who are good enough to be paid to perform. I know for a fact a make more money gigging than many in my area who are far more talented than I. Do I care? No.

Does being up on a stage somehow "validate" your decision to make music?

Gigging is why I play as much as I do...it's great to entertain others, but I would play to some extent no matter what.

How many play an instrument for the sole reason of performing in front of others?

Nope, but certainly part of it...see above.

How many do it because making music is what moves them?

Sure.

How many think that it's fun / a hobby?

Absolutely...a hobby that happens to make me more money than any part-time job could. I pay my bills via another career. Making money and seeing music as a hobby are not mutually exclusive. There's nothing inherently wrong with either point of view.

[Russell L]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

Based on his ensuing comments I'd still have to disagree... there seems to be a pretty clear agenda.

Could be, I dunno. It don't matter. I'm still with the rest of ya's, and doing whatever I do. Play for dough and play for free sometimes, too, especially at home. No problems here.

Oh, and I'm glad that I can play music as a side job rather than doing a lot of other things that I might otherwise hate to do.

[stagebanter]

We live in a world that has a problem with resource distribution. We have chosen - at least in my country - to solve that problem using money. Getting paid for gigs allows us to pay for the cost of doing more gigs without having to take on extra work outside of the music world.

Furthermore, because we don't do "exposure" gigs and use professional contracts etc., we have developed a reputation as professionals. That reputation has gotten us in front of WAY more audiences than "hey, this band is really good" ever has. Maybe that's a sad truth, but it is the truth, so there's no point lying about it. Because of our professional reputation, the size of our appreciative audience has grown immensely...and because we have such a supportive audience, we can play what we want, when we want to play it, and not have to worry about it "bombing". Yes, we take risks, but our audience loves it. We know our audience and we got them by being professional.

Part of being a professional is getting paid.

Yes, I would still make music, paid or not, but being paid just makes everything easier for me, and I'm all about that, because it means I get to spend more time playing music and enjoying myself.

By the way, OP, I feel as though your thread title and many of your posts are inflammatory. I am not interested in playing the "what did I do?" game with you. I'm just stating my feelings about your thread.

[nortonrider]

Interesting how many people here either go immediately on the defensive or on the attack.
Like there is some sort of hidden agenda behind this thread.
I asked some questions, that it.

I didn't personally attack anyone, But for some reason so many seem to retort in a manner determined to discredit me.
Honestly, If you are so butthurt by this thread, why are you posting in it?
I want to thank everyone who at least made an attempt at an honest answer.

For some, it is clear to see that this music thing is a competition to them, the mre gigs they have played, the more money they have made, the more valid their opinion seems to be (to them anyway)

EXAMPLE:

Originally Posted by Bass_Pounder

Very clear............

Then add to that a "personal resume" that only has 12 gigs in 30 years of playing, and well - make your own conclusions from there

Bass Pounder, I don't play out in front of an audience because I can't, it's because I don't want to.
I thought that I had made that pretty clear - I guess not.


Again...... The purpose of this thread was not to put anyone down for choosing to perform music for their own reasons, It was just asking what those motivations were.

Oh, by the way,
I have never had a thread go 10 pages before, that's kind of a milestone for me!
It shows that this topic has certainly struck a chord (or cut too close to the bone) for a lot of TB'ers.

[DJ Bebop]

In response to my own commit earlier.
I do have friends, right here in my house now who reminded
me that I do know some Pro players who will also play with and for others when the mood and situation is right. These players are world traveled and known. Some this community knows well but, I am not outting them so as to not loose their "Pro" listing

Now they come to my house and play for no more than dinner, drinks and fellowship (unlike the "other" ones I know who don't) and not just with me but others as well and yet they still make the BIG MONEY and RECORD with the BIG PEOPLE and "they" tell me stories of other like minded players who will show up at a bar or open mike and jam awhile with the "little people"

These folks we sometime hear about like Prince or Santana, and yes I know this doesn't happen all the time so don't go to the "I paid a hundred bucks to see Santana and he's playin' around town for free, I don't believe it" stuff please.


All I am trying to say is I don't mind a worker receiving his due and a worker who has invested time education money into it needs to recoup.
But for me, I would never want it to become my "dayjob" were it is JUST about a living and not an art form too. I'm NOT accusing anybody of that also.

[STRINGSLINGER]

I will play for free all night long. However, I will always charge a premium to haul in my gear, set it up, tear it down, and haul it out.

[stagebanter]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

Interesting how many people here either go immediately on the defensive or on the attack.
Like there is some sort of hidden agenda behind this thread.
I asked some questions, that it.

Some of us feel that the manner in which you phrased your questions was inflammatory. For example, instead of calling your thread "I'M ONLY IN IT FOR THE MONEY" (in an obviously sarcastic way) and asking, "why so much focus on money?" (which, in context with the rest of your post, was obviously supposed to be negative)...

you could have called the thread, "paid or not paid" and asked, "how does money factor into the decisions you make as a musician, and why?"

It seems to me that you are more interested in pointing out what you perceive to be "inadequacies" in some people's philosophies, than you are in actually finding out why people care about money. But I could be - and frequently am - wrong.

[DJ Bebop]

Originally Posted by STRINGSLINGER

I will play for free all night long. However, I will always charge a premium to haul in my gear, set it up, tear it down, and haul it out.

[Febs]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

Interesting how many people here either go immediately on the defensive or on the attack.
Like there is some sort of hidden agenda behind this thread.
I asked some questions, that it.

No, you did more than merely ask questions. Your thread started with a false dichotomy. You also made (and continue to make) inflammatory comments that mischaracterize many of the responses that you are getting, or at least, filter those comments through your hobbyist view of the music world. For example:

Originally Posted by nortonrider

So..... what information that I am gathering from this thread is:

many of you are not driven to make music for the sake of wanting to make music.
.many of you just want to argue

For some, it is clear to see that this music thing is a competition to them, the mre gigs they have played, the more money they have made, the more valid their opinion seems to be (to them anyway)

[nortonrider]

stagebanter,
I don't even know how to respond to your post other than to re-quote my post that you just quoted,
So here you go.........

Originally Posted by nortonrider
Interesting how many people here either go immediately on the defensive or on the attack.
Like there is some sort of hidden agenda behind this thread.
I asked some questions, that it.

[stagebanter]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

stagebanter,
I don't even know how to respond to your post other than to re-quote my post that you just quoted,
So here you go.........

Well, you could respond by explaining to me why your original post was not inflammatory. I certainly found it to be so. You seemed to imply that anyone who wants to get paid is "only in it for the money" and that if they really cared about music they would be totally OK with never seeing a dime for it.

You also seemed to imply that many of us who desire to get paid treat music like a competition. Now, maybe I'm just reading it wrong, but I feel like I'm not the only one who feels this way about your post.