The "I'm only in it for the money" club

[nortonrider]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

Some of you guys are really tripping me out.
Here, let me try again.

Music is one of those silly activities that can be considered both an Art and a Trade.
People pursue their Art for a variety of reasons while people perform their Trade for one reason - Compensation (Money).

You people that keep saying stuff like "I won't load my gear in the truck for less than $100.", make it sound like playing the bass is your Trade, just a way of making money. Like the act of making music is secondary.

My question would better be asked as "would you still be making music for the sake of your Art, if you wern't getting paid to do it?


Of course everyone would like to get paid doing what they love, If they can make it happen then More Power to them!
I think that pretty much goes without saying.

This quote was post #85.
Since I have stated my intentions over and over again, I really can't even think of anything else to do other than quote myself.

I've gotta go back to work now so maybe this is a good place to let this thread die.

From this thread I have learned that:
. Some guys are playing for the joy of making music (but a little money is nice)
. Some guys are in it only for the $
. Some guys just want to argue
. There are some really insecure people posting on Talkbass.

Now if that ^ offended you........ ask yourself why?

Seriously, I gotta go, let's just let this topic drop it's probably for the best.

[R Upsomegrub]

For years I didn't worry so much about the money; I primarily took gigs that were either fun or put me in a learning-situation to be a better bassist/musician. If I got paid, that was a bonus. Starting in 1993, I spent 7 years playing in a church band (for free) led by a talented/capable/driven musical director and learned as much in those 7 years as I have in the other 34+ years I've been playing. But a couple of years ago, I bit the bullet and joined a new country/classic rock band solely for their earning potential. I admit sometimes I feel like I'm punching the clock with that band (they're good guys, the material just isn't my thing). But I still have time for other musical endeavors.

[Febs]

nortonrider, what do you do for a living? Do you enjoy it?

[BobaFret]

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a full-time musician that only played for money and had no real love for music. It's unpossible!

[Biggbass]

Sometimes I play for pay, sometimes for food & bev trade, sometimes for fun. In the end if it works out that the pay I receive covers the expense of the gear I buy each year and the cost of playing the gigs (fuel, etc) then I'm happy with that. Of course during times of cronic GAS it can be difficult to break even. After new gear acquisitions in 2012 I think I'm about 12 month behind on breaking even right now!

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by stagebanter

Well, you could respond by explaining to me why your original post was not inflammatory. I certainly found it to be so. You seemed to imply that anyone who wants to get paid is "only in it for the money" and that if they really cared about music they would be totally OK with never seeing a dime for it.

You also seemed to imply that many of us who desire to get paid treat music like a competition. Now, maybe I'm just reading it wrong, but I feel like I'm not the only one who feels this way about your post.

Agreed.

I got that vibe, too. That's why my initial response was written in the manner that it was. If there is one thing I've learned at TB it's that people can only read whatever it is that you put down. There is no body language or (for the most part) awareness of a person's personality type and character to be associated with any post. You have to be very careful with what you say and how you say it.

[RustyAxe]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

How many guys here judge their musicianship by the amount of "gigs' they do or the amount of money that they make?
(like a competition or gauging themselves against players that don't play out often.)

Not at all ... some of the best players I know live in the studio.

Does being up on a stage somehow "validate" your decision to make music?

Not at all sure what you mean by this. I make music because I must. It's just what I do. Part of me. Doesn't need external validation.

How many play an instrument for the sole reason of performing in front of others?

Nah, it's over-rated. Playing with other musicians is certainly a great motivator.

How many do it because making music is what moves them?

Yep.

How many think that it's fun / a hobby?

Yes, and more if that's what one wants.

Really....... why such as strong focus on money?

In a forum called "Band Management" it's going to be popular topic. I wouldn't expect otherwise.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by LiquidMidnight

This pretty much sums it up for me. Some people play and they totally get their rocks off if every note they play never sees the outside of the rehearsal room. I'm totally down with that. Just do you thing.

But for me personally, there has to be some sort of "pay off" in the end. I generally only dedicate time to things if it's going to have some sort of semi-tangible outcome. My time's valuable, and I'm a pramatist. For instance, after not writing for a long time, I've recently started writing poetry again. My plan is to get enough material to self-publish a book. I know that self-publishing can be hari-kari in the writing world; but I'm not trying to become a professional poet. But I don't see much sense in writing if I can't share that with other people. When it comes to music, I can fish for leisure, but fishing doesn't take years of studying and paying dues. I'm not looking to be a star, but I want some sort of pay-off outside of the rehearsal room. I'm not into learning a cover unless I'm going to later perform it on stage and I'm not interested in writing an original unless it's going to be played on stage or laid down on tape. The exceptions being learning a song that I can deconstruct and study, but even that has a semi-tangible payoff: I become a better bass player/musician/songwriter/composer/etc.

Yep.

I grew up playing competitive sports. For me, it's not enough to just go out there and play the good game and then drink a juice box at the end whether or not we win or lose. I know many people don't like to look at music as a competition (and I really don't myself), but I can't help but to want more out of music than what being a hobbyist can give me. I want to compete; even if it's just to with myself to see how good or far I can get with it.

Originally Posted by jmclearnon

Some people will never understand, from reading this there has been a lot of stupid immature comments and some pieces of good advice. Think about these few points:

I want a career, so i go to college/university and spend X amount of hours learning and gaining skills to fulfill what a future employer wants..... Then you get paid for it. A musician does exactly the same except their X amount of hours is sometimes double and more money is spent on "Tools" then it costs to go to university.

I started playing gigs at age 10 playing cello in an orchestra (even though at that stage a pretty low standard) EVERY concert has tickets, because you still have to pay for the concert hall and music and stands/movement of percussion.

Fast forward to a few years ago, still not being paid playing in several orchestras, but the orchestra got paid, allows for new music ($1000's) and tours to be organised (Massive benefits ) all those hours or rehearsals are worth it!

Now subbing for a professional orchestra all the musicians are paid for what they play. If this wasn't the case there would be no, concert halls, art galleries, less book publishers, no string manufacturers amongst things.

Hopping over to bass guitar, i practice and jam and gig a lot. If i wasn't paid for any gigs i would still play at them, i however would be putting my friends out of a job if i was attainable for free (not cool). I love playing, and love performing in the background or at the front, but i expect to be paid. Charity gigs/church or something i have never done before are the only times i play free.

Lets just say also, the amount of money needed to insure and maintain my instruments is a lot. We have something people want, what does someone do when they want something they buy it, ps also comedians and magicians would not exist if you took the blunt attitude.

I love playing at everything, but i need money to be able to afford to live, if i ever start making loads of money i will be less worried about where next months rent will come from and just play, but come-on musicians working hours are also generally massively off-peak aswell you havent even thought about that.

100% this!

Originally Posted by hover

No - not really!
With the amount of post/threads concerning playing and compensation, it got me wondering.........

Q. How many guys here judge their musicianship by the amount of "gigs' they do or the amount of money that they make?
(like a competition or gauging themselves against players that don't play out often.)

A. I'd only care about that stuff if you were wanting to join a group of my own. My band is pretty active on stage, so having great stage presence is important for us. Unfortunately, you can only really gain stage presence by playing on stage! For everyone else, you can play on the biggest stages or on your own bedroom stage. I don't care one way or the other.

Q. Does being up on a stage somehow "validate" your decision to make music?

A. I don't need to feel validated. I do what I do because it's what I want to do.

Q. How many play an instrument for the sole reason of performing in front of others?

A. I love playing live. I think the most amazing feeling in the world is to see and hear people sing the lyrics of a song you wrote back to you. Is it my sole reason for playing? No. Again, I like to compete with myself just to see how far I can take it, but it is a nice feeling playing to an audience.

Q. How many do it because making music is what moves them?

A. Many things move me; music just happens to be one of them. That said, it is one of the few things that moves me that I can potentially make a career out of it, too. I spent the last four and a half years studying for my business degree. Do you wanna know what doesn't move me?

My words in bold with this last quote.

[klokker]

I play bass because I enjoy playing, don't need the money. Having said that I won't play for free (except a church gig).

When it's a bar gig etc., then without the money, no play. Doesn't mean its all about the money (its not that much), its just that in that kind of setting not getting paid is really being foolish IMO.

If its a really low-paying gig, $300 or less, then I'm willing to take a pay cut, so our guitar player gets his $100. He DOES need the money and is the star of our show, so in that sense its NOT about the money at that point.

I get a free day once in a while and its nothing for me to play my bass for 8 hours or so on my own. That's definitely NOT about the money.

[DJ Bebop]

If I am ask to play out in a club or gig and people are coming to view, listen and drink and eat and pay for it.
I want my money and all of it that is agreed upon,
maybe even more if there's more to be had.

Let me be clear on THAT

However, if someone needs help or it's for or with friends or family.
I will decide if money is appropriate or needed and yet no one thinks less of me or tries to take advantage of me or,
thinks I must not be worth it 'cause I didn't take money.
At least so far....

[ChrisB2]

Originally Posted by the yeti

right, in the op nortonrider cited the large number of posts about money. *if* he spends a lot of time in here as opposed to humor, technique, effects, etc, he should see more posts about money. further, if he spends a majority of time in here it *could* lead to the view that musicians are preoccupied with money, which i believe is incorrect even for self-declared prostitutes such as myself.

Excellent observation. However I don't think the proportion of monetary discussions in BM fully explains the disposition of the thread, especially in light of the OP's follow-up posts.

Besides, he had the opportunity to read your hypothesis and didn't respond to it so I suspect he does not affirm it.

I can't figure out why, but something weird is going on with nortonrider's posts. The more I read, the more it seems that the purpose of the thread was to either; stir up controversy, make a point in a subversive manner, or bait people into inadvertently confirming an unstated prejudice.... any of which ultimately lead to "troll."

[fmoore200]

Maybe his subsequent posts have been inflammatory, but when I first read the OP, I didn't think there was any ill intentions behind it.

[lbbc]

I am not ONLY in it for the money....but that DOES justify buying new gear. I love playing in front of everyone and anyone. I am also a band director who happens to play many instruments...that settles any musicianship question in my mind.

There's not much money in playing (on my area) so, I take what I can get, play with whoever and any style whenever I can. I would love to play for a living, but then it would only become a job....so, I'm happy with my "weekend warrior" gigs.

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by fmoore200

Maybe his subsequent posts have been inflammatory, but when I first read the OP, I didn't think there was any ill intentions behind it.

+1

On the other hand, there IS a strong focus on money on TB. Every time somebody gets in an argument about a famous bass player they like, they try to equate good bass playing with how much money that player makes. Like ZZ Top's success somehow means that Dusty Hill is a great bass player. And then if you disagree, some asshat tries to say that you aren't entitled to have an opinion because you don't make as much money as Dusty Hill.

Not that there is anything wrong with making money, and not saying that some good bass players don't make a lot of money, but some people can't separate commercial/financial success from musicianship.

There's making money and there's great musicianship. They aren't mutually exclusive, but one doesn't guarantee the other.

[Guitalia]

Andy Warhol cut right through the art vs. money false dichotomy: "When do you know it's art? When the check clears."

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by Barisaxman

I'll play

How many guys here judge their musicianship by the amount of "gigs' they do or the amount of money that they make?

Not I, I don't consider myself anywhere near great at this. But I am good enough that I can make a decent amount of "fun" money each year by playing with others who are good enough to be paid to perform. I know for a fact a make more money gigging than many in my area who are far more talented than I. Do I care? No.

Does being up on a stage somehow "validate" your decision to make music?
.

For me, yes it does validate my decision to play bass guitar in cover rock bands.

When someone finds out I play in a band and I get that famous question, cool where are you guys playing? I love being able to say. "We are playing at abc club this Friday and on Saturday were playing at the xyz bar." As opposed to, "We don't have any gigs right now but when we do I'll let you know."

Some guys judge themselves by the quality of their art and creativity, which is fine. However,I judge myself on how much I'm gigging and how much money I'm making. Why not?

Blue

[Russell L]

Originally Posted by fmoore200

Maybe his subsequent posts have been inflammatory, but when I first read the OP, I didn't think there was any ill intentions behind it.

Me neither.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by bluewine

For me, yes it does validate my decision to play bass guitar in cover rock bands.

When someone finds out I play in a band and I get that famous question, cool where are you guys playing? I love being able to say. "We are playing at abc club this Friday and on Saturday were playing at the xyz bar." As opposed to, "We don't have any gigs right now but when we do I'll let you know."

Some guys judge themselves by the quality of their art and creativity, which is fine. However,I judge myself on how much I'm gigging and how much money I'm making. Why not?

Blue

Never thought of it that way, but it actually is pretty cool to always be able to say when your next gig is. It definitely seems to establish yourself as an active, local artist.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

This quote was post #85.
Since I have stated my intentions over and over again, I really can't even think of anything else to do other than quote myself.

I've gotta go back to work now so maybe this is a good place to let this thread die.

From this thread I have learned that:
. Some guys are playing for the joy of making music (but a little money is nice)
. Some guys are in it only for the $
. Some guys just want to argue
. There are some really insecure people posting on Talkbass.

Now if that ^ offended you........ ask yourself why?

Seriously, I gotta go, let's just let this topic drop it's probably for the best.

You learned the bolded statement in this thread?



Who said that? Seriously. Shouldn't be too hard to quote a couple of those posts in context.

[fdeck]

To address the OP directly:

How many guys here judge their musicianship by the amount of "gigs' they do or the amount of money that they make? (like a competition or gauging themselves against players that don't play out often.)

Not my musicianship per se, but I use my gig income to gauge the health of the local scene, along with my own ability to keep myself in the market. I don't disparage players who gig infrequently or not at all. There are many ways to enjoy playing music, and I know that the business has had its ups and downs.

Does being up on a stage somehow "validate" your decision to make music?

I play because I enjoy playing, and I perform because I enjoy performing. With that said, I certainly get a morale boost from being able to hang with killer players on the bandstand, and bringing some pleasure to the audience. The bandstand is the place where I really find out what I have to work on in the woodshed.

How many play an instrument for the sole reason of performing in front of others?

For most of us, I imagine that bass is a naturally sociable instrument, like having a friendly dog who enjoys being around people and getting out for some exercise now and then. It gets lonesome and bored if it stays at home. For this reason, I think that bassists might be more likely than other players to lean towards gigging, and this just raises the likelihood of eventually confronting the issue of money.

How many do it because making music is what moves them?

How many think that it's fun / a hobby?

All of the above.

Really....... why such as strong focus on money?

Part of it is that for the genres that I play (mostly jazz) there is still a basic relationship between money, the caliber of the musicians involved, and the quality of the venue. Also, I feel that as a relatively affluent day jobber, I should be respectful to working pro's by following their rules regarding gig pay and working conditions.

I've been reading a book that includes some biographical material about JS Bach. While he was one of the most gifted musicians ever, he definitely expected to get paid, and was constantly trying to advance his career. He complained when his sidemen didn't get paid enough. He got into disputes with his employers over pay. During his era, it was a widely accepted social norm that a professional musician should be able to earn a living from music.