The "I'm only in it for the money" club

[burnunit]

I'm a little fish. It's complicated. I'll play a benefit for free, I'll play to help out a friend, yes, even a bar owner, I'll play at a jam for fun, but for a commercial enterprise, hand over the bananas, please. I know there's enough to go around. Otherwise I'm comfy playing at home.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Dude, if I was driven to make money, I'd be doing something else besides playing music. Fact is, you came in with a false premise that says "If you get paid for playing music, you can't be doing it for the fun of it," and you only wanted to see your premise validated by others. If that's your opinion, fine. Doesn't affect my world one way or another. But you shouldn't question other people's motivations or cast aspersions on what they consider "enjoyment with music." Not your place to tell us how we should enjoy playing music.

Excellent summation, counselor.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

Boy, this is so trying to become another TB pile on!

My history:
I've been playing on and off (mostly on) for the past 30 years.
In that time I have played in 4 organized groups and countless get togethers and jams.
I have played 12 "gigs" in my life, (all paying), but I didn't do them for the money, it was more or less for the experience.

I probably did 12 gigs my first year on the instrument. Money wasn't the reason but it was damn cool getting paid for something that at that point I would've done for free. Beause I loved music.

What I learned is that I really don't enjoy playing in front of an audience (for any amount of money) but I Do very much enjoy making music, it is part of who I am.

I don't mind playing in front of an audience... but that's not why I play. I play because I love music. If they happen to be there it doesn't bother me.

I know my position, and how I came to it.
I didn't pick up the guitar to "get rich", "be a rock star", "get chicks", have people think that I am "cool" or any other motivation other than I liked making the sounds come out of it.

Funny I was just talking to a couple of friends of mine, both pro players about this same tangent today. Why did we start playing music? To a man we started because we loved music and thought it would be cool to be able to make music. Not cool to be seen, to be able to actually make music. Didn't do it for chicks, one of us ended up a regional "rock star, that stuff was a by-product and not the primary goal.

There is really no reason for you people to become so "venomous" in the defense of your musical motivations,
I just asked a question..... if you don't want to answer - then don't.

I did.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

Roy, would you still be playing if you never made a dime doing it?

I would... but I damn sure wouldn't be gigging.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

Some of you guys are really tripping me out.
Here, let me try again.

Music is one of those silly activities that can be considered both an Art and a Trade.

That may be a telling description on your part. I don't find music to be a silly activity. At all. I can see why you'd think getting paid for a silly activity would be unimportant. I get paid for serious talent though I can be as silly as the next guy.

People pursue their Art for a variety of reasons while people perform their Trade for one reason - Compensation (Money).

You people that keep saying stuff like "I won't load my gear in the truck for less than $100.", make it sound like playing the bass is your Trade, just a way of making money. Like the act of making music is secondary.

No, that's simply how you chose to look at it. Try another view.

How about "as an artist, I will not be taken advantage of".

My question would better be asked as "would you still be making music for the sake of your Art, if you wern't getting paid to do it?

Again, yes. Is that confusing? Seems pretty simple to me.

Of course everyone would like to get paid doing what they love, If they can make it happen then More Power to them!

I think that pretty much goes without saying.

I don't. It's not true... many couldn't care less about getting paid for something they love to do. So "everyone" is an overstatement IMO.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

Here's a question - what does it matter?

The problem I have with these threads is that there are always a handful of people who show up and seem to backhandedly berate those who make money playing music. I'm not sure if these people are just jealous or if they somehow think they're more noble, but it's very frustrating for a lot of us who make the majority of our income from music.

Here's the thing. I love music. Words can't even describe my passion for it. The fact that I'm skilled enough to get paid (and paid what seems to be quite well compared to most people on this forum) for it is just amazing. I make enough to support myself and my lifestyle, and for that I am unbelievably grateful because, in my eyes, I never have to work a day in my life.

That said, if I weren't being paid as well as I am now I would have to get a day job to cover my expenses. That means I'd have less time to rehearse and to gig. Music would have to take a back seat, and my ability to create art would be severely limited to whenever my work schedule would allow it.

The irony of it all is that it's only other musicians who make this money thing out to be a big deal. I was at a NYE party last night and I ran into a lot of people who I haven't seen since high school. I talked to a lot of them about what kind of jobs they're working now because we're (mostly) all out of college, and I got a lot of the typical middle management/retail jobs from person to person. When they asked me what I did and found out I was making my living playing music they all were astonished. To a lot of them, I was the most successful one out of all of us there because I am able to make money doing something that I love, whereas most of them can't even stand their jobs.

Yep.

[nortonrider]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

How about "as an artist, I will not be taken advantage of".

If you play for free, you feel like you are "being taken advantage of".
Got it!
Thanks for your reply.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by Russell L

Jimmy, pal, I went and read the original post again, but didn't really think the OP meant it that way. And I think that if he sounded a little uppidy later it was because he was accused of such. There were no statements, just questions. No offense to you either. I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think the OP needs to be tarred and feathered.

Look at the thread title.


I think the OP flowed nicely into the other statements he made quite nicely so I see Jimmy's points. Why the focus on money? He expanded on the reasoning behind the question and Jimmy's on point IMO.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

That seems to be the other side of this coin... people who get paid must look at people who don't as chumps? I don't think about people who play for free. They can do what they want. I look at them as people who made a decision... which is the same thing I did.

I make a living playing music now. I get paid relatively well and the majority of my work is local-ish. I have no desire to do an open mic. I don't want to jam with buddies... the vast majority of times I've been the most serious musician in the room and that's no fun IME IMO.

On the broader topic...

I like to play with "better" musicians and I've found that those tend not to be hobbyists. I like playing with folks who take this as seriously as I do and most hobbyist don't. I mean no offense with that observation, that's just what I've seen so far. And pro who doesn't take it seriously is not likely to operate in the circle I do.

I have more fun playing with people who don't come into a situation with a laundry list of reasons/excuses on why they couldn't do what needed to be done. In that respect I guess I'm spoiled. When I had dayjobs I had the same attitude towards music that I have now. It's served me well in making money all along. So why do I want to make money doing something I was going to do anyway?

Why not?

Now that I think about it, if it's a cover band. Nobody out there playing a 4 hour bar gig is doing it for free.

If an original band is headlining and they have packed the house and the owner is selling a lot of alcohol their getting paid too.

So, who is playing for free, what type of shows are these?

Blue

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

If you play for free, you feel like you are "being taken advantage of".
Got it!
Thanks for your reply.

If I am performing as an artist at a venue and that venue is making money off my performance, yes. That's showing a lack of respect for what I'm doing. If I don't want to get paid that's another matter.

So no, I don't think you get it.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by bluewine

Now that I think about it, if it's a cover band. Nobody out there playing a 4 hour bar gig is doing it for free.

If an original band is headlining and they have packed the house and the owner is selling a lot of alcohol their getting paid too.

So, who is playing for free, what type of shows are these?

Blue

I don't understand the relevance to my post.

[nortonrider]

For some reason Brad, I feel that you are trying to bait me into arguing with you,
I don't want to fight.
If you are somehow "offended" by this thread, please feel free to not participate in it.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

For some reason Brad, I feel that you are trying to bait me into arguing with you,
I don't want to fight.
If you are somehow "offended" by this thread, please feel free to not participate in it.

Your feelings are inaccurate. Read with a different intent and maybe you'll see what many of us are clearly saying. I'm so far from offended it's not funny. I simply like to see how other folks view the world. Thanks for the insight.


You said "You people that keep saying stuff like "I won't load my gear in the truck for less than $100.", make it sound like playing the bass is your Trade, just a way of making money. Like the act of making music is secondary".

That is simply the black & white way you are choosing to look at this, as if this were an either/or situation. It's not. You can't see that the primary thing is performing, an art, which also happens to be a trade and one of the factors involved is compensation, not the primary thing you think it is.

[Stone Soup]

I didn't start playing to make money, but I've been getting paid to play since high school. For several years, my only living came from gigging. I will not carry my gear to clubs or events to play for free. I don't care about any "exposure" I'll get from playing your bar. I will not help some schmuck sell beer, without getting a cut. If I'm not getting $100.00 or more, I'm not even lugging my gear.

I don't consider myself an "artist". I have always been a hired hand; just someone used to get the job done. I have been asked by so called "artists" to join their projects and refused them, because I won't play for free. I'm not interested in helping to further YOUR career, out of the kindness of my heart. I don't have stars in my eyes, at all, and when I did, I was getting paid.

I won't hold it against you if you want to try and do your own original thing, and it requires you to put in long hours or to pay to play. Do your thing. But if you're playing covers in some pub, for no pay, and the pub owner is smiling all the way to the bank, you're a fool.

I still enjoy playing. I would still play if there were no gigs. it would be in my or a friend's back yard, at my leisure, and there will at least be a meal and drinks provided for all who are playing.

[DJ Bebop]

Originally Posted by Russell L

Boy, do I agree with that. I know folks like that, but then I have many friends who like to get together just for playing music together. The joys of comeraderie and jamming is the pay we get.

I think the best way to describe myself is kinda similar to yours, DJ Bebop. While I play for pay and even TRY to do so, I also play at home for pleasure (not just practice), play with friends for free, even play a few functions for free if I think I should give something. I did that for a gospel trio once for awhile just because they needed some bass. No pay, but it had it's own rewards.

Other folks do it all differently. That's ok, too. After all, they're not me.

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

This is why I hate these threads (no offense to the OP!). Musicians who get paid shouldn't have to justify why it is that they'll only play for money. As this thread has shown, everyone has their own opinion on this matter, and no amount of arm twisting is going to change anyone's thoughts. All I'll say is that if someone can get paid for a skill that they have (regardless of what that skill is) shouldn't they be allowed to do it without others judging them or demanding a reason why they'll accept pay for their work? Shouldn't we instead be happy for our fellow musicians for having the chance to make a potential living out of music? I know it was my dream to be a professional musician when I was a teenager...

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

That seems to be the other side of this coin... people who get paid must look at people who don't as chumps? I don't think about people who play for free. They can do what they want. I look at them as people who made a decision... which is the same thing I did.

I make a living playing music now. I get paid relatively well and the majority of my work is local-ish. I have no desire to do an open mic. I don't want to jam with buddies... the vast majority of times I've been the most serious musician in the room and that's no fun IME IMO.

On the broader topic...

I like to play with "better" musicians and I've found that those tend not to be hobbyists. I like playing with folks who take this as seriously as I do and most hobbyist don't. I mean no offense with that observation, that's just what I've seen so far. And pro who doesn't take it seriously is not likely to operate in the circle I do.

I have more fun playing with people who don't come into a situation with a laundry list of reasons/excuses on why they couldn't do what needed to be done. In that respect I guess I'm spoiled. When I had dayjobs I had the same attitude towards music that I have now. It's served me well in making money all along. So why do I want to make money doing something I was going to do anyway?

Why not?

I get why my friends don't want to play unless it's a paying gig.
They are workmen and due their fee, yet I don't doubt their love for music as art.

I myself just don't want to get to the point that I feel uncomfortable playing with people of different abilities either more or less than mine or with or for family, friends.

I guess I don't want to look at it as a day job. If that makes me less than a "Pro" player, so be it. I guess I don't look at it that "seriously".

[nortonrider]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

You said "You people that keep saying stuff like "I won't load my gear in the truck for less than $100.",

Yes I did.
Actually, It is all of the recent posts to that effect that prompted me to start this thread and ask the question in the first place.
Maybe guys are saying such things to somehow build themselves up and increase their perceived "worth" as a musician. "I am to good to play for free" and so on.
I don't know, that's why I asked.

I do find it interesting how many are willing to post what they won't do.

[millertx]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

What is it with this line of questioning? Are you trying to draw a line in between having fun with music and getting paid, like if you're getting paid it could never be fun? I've done it strictly for fun, and I've done it while getting paid, and without question, getting paid is more fun. So I'm sorry but I have to reject this false dichotomy of the thread's premise.

+1

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

I don't understand the relevance to my post.

I might have missed the point of your thread.

My apologies.

Blue

[HolmeBass]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

If that's your experience, then I would say that you are doing it wrong.
None of those things have ever happened to me.

Oh please, you play for free but none of these things have ever happened to you? You're blaming a fellow musician for having seen or been involved with unscrupulous venues? Blame the victim much? This a troll thread. Obvious troll is obvious.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

Yes I did.
Actually, It is all of the recent posts to that effect that prompted me to start this thread and ask the question in the first place.
Maybe guys are saying such things to somehow build themselves up and increase their perceived "worth" as a musician. "I am to good to play for free" and so on.
I don't know, that's why I asked.

I do find it interesting how many are willing to post what they won't do.

Hey Russell, you still think I misread nortonrider's intentions?

Let me make this clear...neither I, nor anyone who plays music for a living, needs to say such things to build ourselves up. The marketplace determines my worth, not Talkbass. A bunch of people have decided that the job I do is worth paying for, and they pay me. If they decide I no longer meet their expectations, they won't. What the hell good is it going to do to inflate yourself up to an audience of people who all do the exact same thing you do? Nobody from this lot is ever going to hire me because they are all bass players. An absolutely silly notion.

You, OTOH, have a hangup about not playing for a living. It's obvious. We're not stupid...this thread went the direction it went because you took it there, so don't blame us for "misunderstanding" you. I wish you a good life no matter how far you pursue music, but if it's not your goal to make money with music, don't antagonize others who do. Otherwise you will be perceived as being bitter about not making a living with music.