The "I'm only in it for the money" club

[lowfreq33]

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

Jimmy... in all honesty... there are some of us (guessing you may be in this club)... that do things that increase our perceived value....

It's all the nutty stuff garage bands get past... having a good website name... easy to read/find/identify business cards... a phone number that you can text to...

We don't "say" things... there is an increased perceived value when our website works on a smart phone... we publish a list of the 1000 songs we're familiar with etc.

So no we don't "say" things... we're probably have better packaging... that says a ton to a prospective band leader.




After playing around with multiple acts... there is a time when NOT going out is a good thing... hugging the baby is a good thing.

I've been blessed with the ability to have great mentors... blessed with the ability to listen to them.

One guy when I was starting out gave me a few "commandments for gigging & married musician's longevity"

1. open a separate bank account & tax id for gigging
2. keep clean books for music
3. NEVER ask the Mrs permission to buy gear (can it come out of the family fund)... it all comes out of the gigging account
4. Periodically pull a few bucks out of the account to give the Mrs a few bucks to get her nails done
5. bend over backwards to ensure the Mrs has a personal life
6. when you're gigging - never play free gigs when you could be with your friends and family

Looking back on the calendar of last year...

The worst attended... worst run... most stressful... most prep time were the volunteer gigs... I did a payback for a friend - mistake on my part.

This last statement rings very true. When someone asks you to play for little or no money they're telling you what they think you're worth. When you take the gig you're telling them they're right.

Earlier this year I took a gig, $350 for 4 nights in Denver. Travel and hotel covered, nothing else. That's a little less than my normal minimum, but the guitarist is a friend, and I hadn't been to Denver in awhile, plus I'd have a chance to catch up with a few friends in the area.

Next thing I know the "Artist" wants me to do 5 days in Wisconsin for $350, at a club that I play with my own band. Now I know what this club's top pay is (because we get it), and I know what I pay my guys when we go there. Based on the math I know that he's low-balling the band so he can take a larger share, so I have to turn it down. Not only is that gig NOT worth $350, if I take the gig I'm confirming that I'm not worth much as a player.

Someone told me early in my career, "If you're good at something, there are a lot of people in this town who will be happy to 'let you' do it. Charge what you're worth."

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

Jimmy... in all honesty... there are some of us (guessing you may be in this club)... that do things that increase our perceived value....

It's all the nutty stuff garage bands get past... having a good website name... easy to read/find/identify business cards... a phone number that you can text to...

We don't "say" things... there is an increased perceived value when our website works on a smart phone... we publish a list of the 1000 songs we're familiar with etc.

So no we don't "say" things... we're probably have better packaging... that says a ton to a prospective band leader.

I only wish I had packaging! Anyway, I do stuff to prop myself up, but not on here. I do stuff on here that makes me look like I'm succeeding despite all efforts not to!

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally Posted by ChrisB2

For me, it's all of the above; you can roll all of your questions/points in to my pursuit of being a bass player.

I don't gauge my musicianship on the amount of gigs, but my satisfaction with making music is definitely dependent on this, as making music with others for the purpose of entertaining people is my main reason for playing.

Being up on a stage definitely validates my reason for playing, as it is required for the goal to be achieved.

I don't play for the sole reason of entertaining others... I enjoy playing alone, and playing with others in rehearsal, but it's all in preparation for the real reason of gigging with others, for others.

Making music moves me? As in, playing alone?? Eh, somewhat, but playing with others for others is what really moves me. Does anyone derive their main motivation from playing alone??

Yes, it's fun and a hobby. A fun hobby, but not my source of sustenance.

So no, I'm not only in it for the money.

This pretty much sums it up for me. Some people play and they totally get their rocks off if every note they play never sees the outside of the rehearsal room. I'm totally down with that. Just do you thing.

But for me personally, there has to be some sort of "pay off" in the end. I generally only dedicate time to things if it's going to have some sort of semi-tangible outcome. My time's valuable, and I'm a pramatist. For instance, after not writing for a long time, I've recently started writing poetry again. My plan is to get enough material to self-publish a book. I know that self-publishing can be hari-kari in the writing world; but I'm not trying to become a professional poet. But I don't see much sense in writing if I can't share that with other people. When it comes to music, I can fish for leisure, but fishing doesn't take years of studying and paying dues. I'm not looking to be a star, but I want some sort of pay-off outside of the rehearsal room. I'm not into learning a cover unless I'm going to later perform it on stage and I'm not interested in writing an original unless it's going to be played on stage or laid down on tape. The exceptions being learning a song that I can deconstruct and study, but even that has a semi-tangible payoff: I become a better bass player/musician/songwriter/composer/etc.

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally Posted by Bunk McNulty

I still meet people who, when I identify myself as a musician, ask whether I'm any good.

My God, I absolutely HATE when people ask that question. Take about a loaded question! If you say "Yes," you're a conceited ass and if you say "No," you're an unconfident twerp. I'm confident in my abilities, but I don't go around thinking I'm the second-coming of Jaco to free the bass world from the untetered masses.

Besides, I just think it's a weird question with which to begin. When I meet an accountant, dance studio instructor, operations manager, or bus driver, the first thing out of my mouth regarding their profession isn't, "So are you any good?"

[/soapbox]

[millsbass5]

I gig strictly for 3 reasons.

By keeping a steady gig, I get to hang out with my best friends.

I love playing live.

Money, money, money. Until I really thought about it, I didn't realize how many vacations I've taken over the past decades just from putting back what I made from gigging throughout the year. Lots!!

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

That seems to be the other side of this coin... people who get paid must look at people who don't as chumps? I don't think about people who play for free. They can do what they want. I look at them as people who made a decision... which is the same thing I did.

I make a living playing music now. I get paid relatively well and the majority of my work is local-ish. I have no desire to do an open mic. I don't want to jam with buddies... the vast majority of times I've been the most serious musician in the room and that's no fun IME IMO.

On the broader topic...

I like to play with "better" musicians and I've found that those tend not to be hobbyists. I like playing with folks who take this as seriously as I do and most hobbyist don't. I mean no offense with that observation, that's just what I've seen so far. And pro who doesn't take it seriously is not likely to operate in the circle I do.

I have more fun playing with people who don't come into a situation with a laundry list of reasons/excuses on why they couldn't do what needed to be done. In that respect I guess I'm spoiled. When I had dayjobs I had the same attitude towards music that I have now. It's served me well in making money all along. So why do I want to make money doing something I was going to do anyway?

Why not?

+10,000 on all accounts.

[jmclearnon]

Some people will never understand, from reading this there has been a lot of stupid immature comments and some pieces of good advice. Think about these few points:

I want a career, so i go to college/university and spend X amount of hours learning and gaining skills to fulfill what a future employer wants..... Then you get paid for it. A musician does exactly the same except their X amount of hours is sometimes double and more money is spent on "Tools" then it costs to go to university.

I started playing gigs at age 10 playing cello in an orchestra (even though at that stage a pretty low standard) EVERY concert has tickets, because you still have to pay for the concert hall and music and stands/movement of percussion.

Fast forward to a few years ago, still not being paid playing in several orchestras, but the orchestra got paid, allows for new music ($1000's) and tours to be organised (Massive benefits ) all those hours or rehearsals are worth it!

Now subbing for a professional orchestra all the musicians are paid for what they play. If this wasn't the case there would be no, concert halls, art galleries, less book publishers, no string manufacturers amongst things.

Hopping over to bass guitar, i practice and jam and gig a lot. If i wasn't paid for any gigs i would still play at them, i however would be putting my friends out of a job if i was attainable for free (not cool). I love playing, and love performing in the background or at the front, but i expect to be paid. Charity gigs/church or something i have never done before are the only times i play free.

Lets just say also, the amount of money needed to insure and maintain my instruments is a lot. We have something people want, what does someone do when they want something they buy it, ps also comedians and magicians would not exist if you took the blunt attitude.

I love playing at everything, but i need money to be able to afford to live, if i ever start making loads of money i will be less worried about where next months rent will come from and just play, but come-on musicians working hours are also generally massively off-peak aswell you havent even thought about that.

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Who's going to get the gig...the guy who can disappear, or the guy who can rip + disappear when you need him to?

Well to tell the truth I haven't been in this to make money for a long time so maybe things have changed, but from my experience and what I've read hear on TB, I would say the guy that just disappears. However, I do reserve the right to be wrong.

[SteveHeissner]

Playing gigs is like being a pornstar. You do it for BOTH the fun and the money. The more you can get paid to do something you enjoy, all the better.

[hover]

No - not really!
With the amount of post/threads concerning playing and compensation, it got me wondering.........

Q. How many guys here judge their musicianship by the amount of "gigs' they do or the amount of money that they make?
(like a competition or gauging themselves against players that don't play out often.)

A. I don't really guage it as a competition. I *could* take a lot more gigs than I do, but it's not my first focus lately. I haven't been pushing a lot of booking lately as I am in writing mode with a new project, and spending time with my young son. That said, when i take a gig, I usually expect to at LEAST get gas money and a bit extra to cover or at least meet my efforts towards the gig halfway.

Q. Does being up on a stage somehow "validate" your decision to make music?

A. I play the bass because I enjoy it, it's escapism, and it's my platform for expression. That's the majority of the validation for me. Otherwise I would not bother owning the gear I do...the amount or the pay involved validates whether I invest in new gear.


Q. How many play an instrument for the sole reason of performing in front of others?

A. I enjoy playing live a lot, but it's not my only motivator. I much prefer the writing stage and the creative and recording stage and the craft...live performance is just gravy...delicious but not *as* necessary. I know a whole buncha stage whores tho.

Q. How many do it because making music is what moves them?

A. that better describes me, but I'd be lying if I didn't admit the cover gigs weren't totally money driven. More a vehicle to lessen the financial burden or validation of acquiring new gear (see above, lol). The sidemen for hire gigs have to strike a balance. I have to enjoy the music or I don't do the gig, but "for hire" denotes I'm getting paid. It's still work to a degree, and there's no shame in wanting or expecting to get paid for your work.

[Russell L]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

Look at the thread title.


I think the OP flowed nicely into the other statements he made quite nicely so I see Jimmy's points. Why the focus on money? He expanded on the reasoning behind the question and Jimmy's on point IMO.

I know, it's awkward. I'm just thinking maybe he didn't MEAN for it to be this way.

[the yeti]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

No - not really!
With the amount of post/threads concerning playing and compensation, it got me wondering.........

Really....... why such as strong focus on money?

it occurs to me that the majority of posts that mention money are here in band management. that makes a lot of sense i think. where else on the forum would money be an appropriate topic? (obviously for sale threads excluded)

if this were a pastry chef's forum wouldn't it make sense to discuss money/money issues in "shop management"?

would you conclude based on reading the effects sub-forum that the only reason people play is to try the latest "swollen goat discombulator"? actually you may but the point is that's just a piece of the puzzle.

[MNAirHead]

Originally Posted by the yeti

if this were a pastry chef's forum wouldn't it make sense to discuss money/money issues in "shop management"?

Umm.... I know if several bakers that were paid ore than the wedding band (to make pastry and cake)

I managed a catering company while in undergrad.... We'd always start with a budget and work backwards

[MNAirHead]

Sorry auto correct ... More than the band

[the yeti]

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

Umm.... I know if several bakers that were paid ore than the wedding band (to make pastry and cake)

I managed a catering company while in undergrad.... We'd always start with a budget and work backwards

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

Sorry auto correct ... More than the band

right, i'm painfully aware that at many (most?) weddings more is spent on practically everything besides the band (dj). my point was that any "artistic business" has to deal with money, and that the appropriate place to discuss that seems to be "management" rather than "basses" (ovens?), etc.

if the op is spending a lot of time in band management it makes sense that he would see a disproportionate number of posts regarding money.

[bassbully]

I did get back to playing to perform and I enjoy performing live for sure. I don't however need it to continue to write and play original material. Today there are allot of artists who just record and do ok.

I could care less about the money but when I get it it's cool but really I'm paid to play and have fun. For me like most here it's a hobby and i treat it like one since I am 50 soon to be 51 and there are no days like the 60-80's where thety signned any band that sounded decent and had the right look.

To make it today above the regional or bar band level is almost impossible and requires years of touring and hassles. I'm to old and set in my life and ways. I don't need music to make it but need it to help me enjoy my life. It's ok to dream if you are young but the ship has sailed and on even allot fo the young cat's its a longshot that it will ever come into port.

A few Years ago I interviewed a guy for a position in my company. He was in his late 50's and had not job history and lived with his sister. He went on to tell me he was a Professional guitarist and had been playing local/regional gigs for over 30 years. He told me about gigs 4,5,6 night a week in the 70's and 80's but today he was in a local band that was not good and under cutting the local cover bands that I knew of. He had nothing to offer me and had nothing in his life even after all the "glory years??. I really felt sorry for him and could not offer him a job for a few reason's. As he left I said gee I could of been him if I would of kept playing guitar thru high school

[bassbully]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

Would you quit playing music if you were not getting paid for it?

As for now since my main focus is writing,recording ,playing and producing originial music ...Yes! In the future...who knows?

[MNAirHead]

Originally Posted by the yeti

right, i'm painfully aware that at many (most?) weddings more is spent on practically everything besides the band (dj). my point was that any "artistic business" has to deal with money, and that the appropriate place to discuss that seems to be "management" rather than "basses" (ovens?), etc.

if the op is spending a lot of time in band management it makes sense that he would see a disproportionate number of posts regarding money.

Confused--- this is the mgt forum

[bassbully]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

These kind of responses ( "Loading my gear sucks,ect...") just make me think about other "hobbys" like hunting and fishing.

Both fishing and hunting require an initial investment of gear, fuel, loading and unloading stuff, but people do them all of the time for free.

Would you only take someone fishing with you if they paid you to?

Years ago I was paid to take people fishing I was semi-professional in fishing for a long time. The cost of being a musician don't come close to to touring bass fisherman. Tourney's required entry fee's which you paid unless you were sponsored and along with fuel,food and equipment you were only paid if you qualified or won money in the tourney.

[bumperbass]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

No - not really!
With the amount of post/threads concerning playing and compensation, it got me wondering.........

How many guys here judge their musicianship by the amount of "gigs' they do or the amount of money that they make?
(like a competition or gauging themselves against players that don't play out often.)

Does being up on a stage somehow "validate" your decision to make music?

How many play an instrument for the sole reason of performing in front of others?

How many do it because making music is what moves them?

How many think that it's fun / a hobby?

Really....... why such as strong focus on money?

After agonizingly reading all 9 pages, the original post was a blurred, stirred up mess.
I thought I'd just answer each question:
1. I judge my musicianship by the vibe and feedback I get from the other guys and the crowd when we're on stage. I never play every song the same way every night. Playing at the house will never replace gigging on stage because without that vibe going on, you'll never venture into uncharted territory....and venturing into uncharted territory means having a blast AND developing your chops.
2.&3. are the same question. I play to make myself happy; to escape, and that place I escape to has OTHER PEOPLE (the crowd) that are escaping, too, and I want to make their escape enjoyable. After all, it's the band and the crowd that's there, so make it fun. To add my own personal addition to this, I'd have to say that over the last 40+ years, those I have performed with are the closest relationships I've had. There is a comradery in performing with others that someone who's never done it can understand.
4. I'd say 100% of the people on this forum could say music moves them. Not a very good question, IMO.
5. It's fun. Of course it's fun or I wouldn't do it. It's a hobby because it's not my day job.
6. I am not playing for free. The cost of doing business has already been discussed, so I'm not going to go through a laundry list again. I have zero interest in jamming with friends (as in 'down in the basement/livingroom'). That's never been productive for me. More often than not, it's playing all the songs I've played 10,000 times while consuming beer to the point of being tipsy (and I got over that like 25 years ago?). I am paying for a new vehicle to replace my 10 year old model that has 140,000 miles on it. I am maintaining my gear. I pay for extra entertainment for my family. Sometimes I'll just say "I'll get this" at the cash register. I play in clubs. I expect to get paid for my services. Just because I like to do something is no reason to do it for free. I repair laptops, too. I enjoy the END RESULT...a working laptop for a friend/customer. Do I do it for free? Nope. A good friend of mine likes to work on cars. Does he do it for free? Nope.