Inexperienced Singer, what to do?

[BigMac5]

The singer in my son's band has very little experience singing. She just started taking voice lessons a few months ago. She has a great attitude and good stage presence. She's been taking dance lessons for 10 years.

She's 14 years old and has been getting better, she still has a way to go. It's really ok, since the entire point of the band is for these kids to keep learning and getting better. My son is the guitar player, he's 12, the other two band members are 13.

Needles to say she's the week point in the band, but nobody cares as long as she works hard and keeps improving. Most of the feedback we get is that the band sounds good but the singer need to improve a lot. Most of the time she sings flat. Her dad call me and want us to start playing some of our song a step down so shell sound better.

I really don't agree with this. I think she should work hard and learn to sing the songs right. None of the songs her dad mention are out of her range. The one song she is flat the most is "I wanna be sedated" by the Ramones. I don't believe this is a hard song to sing, I could be wrong.

I understand playing a song 1/2 or a full step lower if there are some high notes you can't reach. She's just starting out and I feel that what she needs to work hard to get better. I told her dad that he should discuss this with her voice teacher, as she has never mention anything like this to us. When the band want's to do a song my son can't play on guitar, he works hard, sometimes for months, unyil he can play it right. Should it be any different for her?

What do you guys think? Is this a short cut? Am I Wrong?

The voice teacher attends our band practices from time to time to help with the backup vocals. She was there when we made the bands first recording. My song on guitar and co-vocals with our lead singer. She guided them as they recorded. My son did his vocal in two takes and I lost track of how many takes we did on hers, but it took a while. I think the vocal teacher took it easy on my son as he does not have any singing experience, I don't really know. Listen to the song and videos, and tell me what you think:

http://www.myspace.com/colorerror

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uodPVBVo5QY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UbqKktasAU
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[Depth_Charge]

I have no opinion on whether the band should accomodate the singer or expect the singer to work towards singing in a key out of their range (to them at least).

But I will say dropping and raising keys to accomadate vocalists is pretty common in my experience. It will be beneficial for the young musicians to get used to, and if it makes the band sound better "over night" why not at least try it out?

[BigMac5]

Originally Posted by Depth_Charge

I have no opinion on whether the band should accomodate the singer or expect the singer to work towards singing in a key out of their range (to them at least).

But I will say dropping and raising keys to accomadate vocalists is pretty common in my experience. It will be beneficial for the young musicians to get used to, and if it makes the band sound better "over night" why not at least try it out?

That's a good point, but to clarify the song is not out of her range according to her vocal teacher.

[Akami]

It sounds like one of the problems I used to have where I would do vibrato up to and below the note I was supposed to be on instead of centering my pitch.

Got a lot less complaints and more compliments after listening to some recordings of myself singing.

If the teacher says the songs are in her range and she wants to be a pro then she needs to get some help from her instructor with finding and eliminating the problem.

Most people are not musicians and have a less disciplined ear when hearing the instruments, but everyone has a voice and is natuarally more sensitive to errors by
the singer than anything else.

Be supportive of her but also make sure that she gets serious about eliminating the flat spots.

[Rune Bivrin]

I remeber a female singer of a band I was in 20 years ago. She had pretty much the same issues. What worked for us was turning her mic down! Not so she dissapeared completely, but enough that she had to put some power in the vocals. That helped a lot. For starters, that added some grit to her voice which was needed, and secondly it forced her to aim the notes better. Go for the kill, so to speak, cause there was no chance of sliding into pitch.

She should also sing a lot on her own, where the people around her doesn't make her insecure. Practice is a lot about quantity, regardless of instrument.

But there's also the possibility that she just doesn't have a very good ear. It happens. Not everybody is Celine Dion.

And here's a piece of advice to everybody recording vocals: Don't add chorus, flanger, reverb and double takes until the vocals are NAILED! You just get multiplied suckyness, and make it harder to hear the core. Which you absolutely need to improve.

[Hawaii Islander]

How well is she hearing herself on the monitors? Does she use headphones at all for rehearsal? It just seems that it would be difficult for her to know when she's off, if she can't hear herself.

I also think tuning down is not a bad idea for particularly difficult songs.

I'm glad the kids are working together to improve. They do sound pretty good for their age.

[BigMac5]

Originally Posted by Hawaii Islander

How well is she hearing herself on the monitors? Does she use headphones at all for rehearsal? It just seems that it would be difficult for her to know when she's off, if she can't hear herself.

I also think tuning down is not a bad idea for particularly difficult songs.

I'm glad the kids are working together to improve. They do sound pretty good for their age.

No problem with the monitors, she actually complains sometimes that they are too loud.

[Naggon]

hmm, something definitely does sound a little flat, and out of time, on those recordings. I think it's mostly just in the tricky parts, where she tries to do vibratos...and...haha "vocal hammer-ons," for lack of a better term (I admit I don't know anything technical about singing)

I think she just needs practice, and to keep hearing herself. Get her playing keyboard, or acoustic guitar, or bass, or something like that to help develop her ear outside of her voice lessons. Just learning how to tune a guitar and bass helped my ear a lot.

Also, I know this isn't related to your question, but just going to that myspace page, I couldn't help but notice the tens of thousands of dollars of gear and enormous shiny full-stacks the band has.

With all due respect, from my experience with young bands, and playing in bands when I was around that age, kid bands get a lot of hate directed towards them for having the nicest gear available, obviously bought by their parents, no matter how much talent they have. I suggest you tone down their gear a bit. I really doubt whatever venue they are playing requires two guitar stacks and a fridge, and people will look at that and say "overprivileged, underpracticed" or "no fair, why do they get that gear from their parents when I had to work all summer to afford my ****** squire!"

Just my two cents.

[BigMac5]

Originally Posted by Naggon

hmm, something definitely does sound a little flat, and out of time, on those recordings. I think it's mostly just in the tricky parts, where she tries to do vibratos...and...haha "vocal hammer-ons," for lack of a better term (I admit I don't know anything technical about singing)

I think she just needs practice, and to keep hearing herself. Get her playing keyboard, or acoustic guitar, or bass, or something like that to help develop her ear outside of her voice lessons. Just learning how to tune a guitar and bass helped my ear a lot.

Also, I know this isn't related to your question, but just going to that myspace page, I couldn't help but notice the tens of thousands of dollars of gear and enormous shiny full-stacks the band has.

With all due respect, from my experience with young bands, and playing in bands when I was around that age, kid bands get a lot of hate directed towards them for having the nicest gear available, obviously bought by their parents, no matter how much talent they have. I suggest you tone down their gear a bit. I really doubt whatever venue they are playing requires two guitar stacks and a fridge, and people will look at that and say "overprivileged, underpracticed" or "no fair, why do they get that gear from their parents when I had to work all summer to afford my ****** squire!"

Just my two cents.

You know I totally agree with you on the get her playing an instrument, I have been told this before by a few people.

As far as the gear, you're right about people hating on them for that. I must say that the gear on the pic you are talking about is not all theirs/ours. Most of that stuff, belonged to the other bands playing that night.

[Deacon_Blues]

If the monitoring is OK and she hears herself properly, I think she should work on the support (partially to blame for the pitch problems) and to find a more powerful voice with more edge. She now sings very quietly and I think part of the reason to that could be if she's not very comfortable in her role. Especially if she feels or has been told she's not performing well and the other members are all better.

For practicing purposes, she should try to find a much more powerful voice with more edge to it. It's easiest to find and control this voice mode if you first and establish a sort of "bite" (put a finger just behind your upper front teeth and you get the position). Then try shouting "hey!" loudly. This mode works best on the vowels you hear in "oh" and "yeah".

If she currently sings with with a volume of 2-3 (my estimation) on a 1-10 scale, this mode needs a volume of 7-10 to work. It's good to know the highest note a female can sing in this mode is c#2/d2. For men it's c2 (opera high C). There are ways to reach higher with maintained power by twanging the voice and focus on other slightly sharper vowels.

This function, or mode, is called Overdrive in complete vocal technique(cvt), which I've been studying since last spring. It's the best vocal method there is, according to very many people, including singers, vocal doctors, speech therapists etc. The name overdrive has nothing to do with overdrive as known from the guitar world though. In old vocal terms you would speak about "chest voice", but in cvt, chest voice could mean two other vocal modes too. Because of the blurry definition of chest voice, that term doesn't exist in cvt.

Overdrive is generally considered an easy mode to find and sing in (also by beginners) so good luck with that. The whole reason why I suggest practicing overdrive is you can't sing properly in this mode unless you really open up and sing LOUDLY. No shyness allowed . You can't hold back the voice, or it will jump back to another mode or hurt the voice. Singing in overdrive will make her hear herself in a new way and people's general opinion is also that it is easier controllable than neutral, which she sing is now. Hence, it's likely she won't sing that many flat notes after learning this mode. This would probably boost her confidence and thus likely make her a better singer overall.

There is a medium volume, semi-edged mode which I have found I mostly sing in, but women often consider it to be the most difficult mode to sing in. I won't go into it here, but google 'complete vocal institute' and you'll find more info on their homepage. There is a good introduction to cvt available giving the most important basics, and a couple of good videos on the media page.

Hope this is of any help.

PS. I have about 12 years experience in singing, but cvt made me discover many new functions and how to sing without the risk of damaging your voice. I used to become hoarse pretty easily, but not anymore. I also expanded my range quite radically. So I warmly recommend this method, even though it's not yet very famous worldwide.

[roflol]

shes 14 her voice wont have broken properly yet so she wont know her true range for a few years so she'll be a bit off at times until then or whatevs

[bluestarbass]

I would say, SHES 14!! man are you guys taking this sooo seriously. If its just for fun let them have fun.

1. shes only 14, her voice will mature and change.

2. Even famous singers transpose songs so they can sing more easily. Even if its in her range whats it hurt to tune down if the song sounds better. A half step makes a big difference.

[Plookie]

Originally Posted by bluestarbass

I would say, SHES 14!! man are you guys taking this sooo seriously. If its just for fun let them have fun.

1. shes only 14, her voice will mature and change.

2. Even famous singers transpose songs so they can sing more easily. Even if its in her range whats it hurt to tune down if the song sounds better. A half step makes a big difference.

I'm with bluestarbass, Tooooo serious, DADs!

Let them have fun, the young lady will come around.
My take is that the Dad is forgetting that these are young, yet gifted musicians that are coming into their own. There's no rush, I hope that there's no rush.

I do believe there should be some guidance and some constructive criticism toward each band member as they develop their playing and singing skills.

Plus, dropping down a half or whole scale wouln'd hurt, if the band can do it.

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[BigMac5]

Originally Posted by bluestarbass

I would say, SHES 14!! man are you guys taking this sooo seriously. If its just for fun let them have fun.

1. shes only 14, her voice will mature and change.

2. Even famous singers transpose songs so they can sing more easily. Even if its in her range whats it hurt to tune down if the song sounds better. A half step makes a big difference.

Originally Posted by Plookie

I'm with bluestarbass, Tooooo serious, DADs!

Let them have fun, the young lady will come around.
My take is that the Dad is forgetting that these are young, yet gifted musicians that are coming into their own. There's no rush, I hope that there's no rush.

I do believe there should be some guidance and some constructive criticism toward each band member as they develop their playing and singing skills.

Plus, dropping down a half or whole scale wouln'd hurt, if the band can do it.

That's my point also, there supposed to be having fun. Her dad calls me and has all these plans and wants us to tune down.

[manwiththedogs]

Originally Posted by bluestarbass

I would say, SHES 14!! man are you guys taking this sooo seriously. If its just for fun let them have fun.

1. shes only 14, her voice will mature and change.

2. Even famous singers transpose songs so they can sing more easily. Even if its in her range whats it hurt to tune down if the song sounds better. A half step makes a big difference.

+1
They're just kids...still finding their way, to much pressure (parental or otherwise) could cause them to rebel and lose interest...trust me on this, I've got 4 of my own
If this band is something they really want to do, they will put in the time it takes to make it work.

[Bass Mule]

Tuning down won't help. If the songs are already in her range (per her vocal instructor's info that you've provided), she's flat because she's not "hearing" that she's flat. Tuning down will only make her sing flat in a lower key.

just my .02

[GreyBeard]

Sounds to me like the adults need to let the kids have fun and enjoy the band. If SHE wants to try singing it down a step, the band should try it down a step. It'll be be a good lesson in transposing. In the 2 pc I play in 1/2 the stuff we do isn't in the original key. They're kids, don't ruin it for them.

[BigMac5]

Originally Posted by GreyBeard

Sounds to me like the adults need to let the kids have fun and enjoy the band. If SHE wants to try singing it down a step, the band should try it down a step. It'll be be a good lesson in transposing. In the 2 pc I play in 1/2 the stuff we do isn't in the original key. They're kids, don't ruin it for them.

I agree, she's not the one who wants to sing it a step lower it's her dad's idea.

[BigMac5]

Originally Posted by Bass Mule

Tuning down won't help. If the songs are already in her range (per her vocal instructor's info that you've provided), she's flat because she's not "hearing" that she's flat. Tuning down will only make her sing flat in a lower key.

just my .02

Got it!

[BigMac5]

Hey, what happened to timmbass post?