Learn the song Drummer! Is this too much to ask?

[Groovy_Gravy]

Originally Posted by Sludgemuffin

LOL! Just made me smile.

Well...this is the context in my neck of the woods. This is our crowd...aging farts we are.

Haha man Im just calling it how i See it. That same thing happens everytime a band plays journey no matter where you are..am i right?...The journey Phenomena

[Hobobob]

I agree with you, OP. In my cover band, we all agree to learn the tunes as close as possible to the original versions, then once we all know the song we decide to change certain things (endings, lead breaks, etc.) The only time we listen to a song at rehearsal is when we're ahead of schedule and decide to start learning a new song then and there. Our band is super tight, and we're always getting props from audience members on how close we sound to the recording. If I want to be creative, I'll write for one of my solo bands. This cover group serves as a challenge to learn songs note for note, keeping my ear sharp, and then playing them for audiences who love the music and love dancing. If anybody wants to begrudge me for that, go ahead. I don't play for opinionated bass players.

[Sludgemuffin]

Originally Posted by Stumbo

What do the other guys say? If you don't get support then you have a choice to make.

If you're still getting all the gigs you can handle, doubt 99% of the audience can hear any difference let alone tell the difference or even care about it.

If the other members are not worrying about it, maybe you shouldn't.And, if you keep on complaining, they may end up talking about replacing you.

I'm just sayin'...



Don't worry, be happy.

Ironically...that is exactly what is happening. Its starting to look like Im the weenie...mr. Perfectionist guy...for telling the drummer to at least learn the song.

Because we are older...and have alot of connections...we are getting invites to play gigs here and there...more and more.

Well...weve had to expand our setlist by double because of it. We have to supply house music from 9pm until 1:30. So...weve been frantically trying to add new songs to fill out the time.

The Drummer did ok on the song we demanded him to know when he auditioned for the band. We were just playing as an opening band...only had to knock out 10 songs.

He applied himself to get in...so I know he can do it.

Its mostly the new songs weve been having problems with. But Im seeing a pattern with the drummer just winging it. We cant be winging it now that were moving up and getting paying gigs.

Ironically...hes the only guy in the band who insists on being paid. The rest of us just do it for the fun.

Well...that irks me. Hes the only guy in the band that doesnt want to play non-paying gigs...but hes not willing to sit down and get it together.

[Sludgemuffin]

Originally Posted by Art Araya

this is common. i lead the music ministry at my church. the clearly communicated expectation is for everyone to listen to the music and come knowing their parts.

some come knowing their parts and some don't. some listen well during the week but never learn it on their instrument. some listen a few times and fake it because they believe they're good enough to do this. and some actually work their tails off to learn it like the MP3. some seem to have philosophical issues about learning and performing a part like the MP3 - they want to make it their own and do their own thing.

It's a non-stop issue for me and has been for over a decade. Everyone has different ideas of what learning a song means and how close is close enough and how much time and effort should be spent, etc...

Most of the ones who cry about wanting to have artistic freedom to interpret the tune in their own way are generally the ones that are not-disciplined enough to put in the time to learn it right. and their interpretation is seldom as good as the original. there was only one instance where a player would not learn the parts like the MP3 but was actually good enough to create some on the spot that sounded as good or better then the original.

Most of the ones who cry about wanting to have artistic freedom to interpret the tune in their own way are generally the ones that are not-disciplined enough to put in the time to learn it right. and their interpretation is seldom as good as the original.

You nailed it right there my friend. TYVM.

[prd004]

I'll say this, the debate as to weather the song should be played as it sounds on the record is debatable.

What's not debatable is the fact that you are not bonding with your drummer as a rhythm section. Personally, if I don't jell with a drummer either the money has to be REAL good, he has to go, or I have to go.

[two fingers]

Originally Posted by Groovy_Gravy

i understand. im not trying to diss you guys but its just that EVERY cover band plays the same songs, no matter where in the country you are! i dont get it!

it makes my blood boil, sorry for venting

Sorry bud. But songs are smash hits for a reason. And that reason is that EVERYONE wants to hear them, over and over again. Sure, you can step away from the recipe every now and then. Throw in a few surprises. But if you are a pop rock cover band, there are a couple dozen songs that better be on the list.

As for the OP, it really all depends on what was said when you hired the drummer. If you (and EVERYONE ELSE) in the band were up front with the drummer, and told him what was expected, then you have a case to piss and moan a bit. However, if YOU Are the only one in the room with a problem (and if you are the only one talking, then you ARE the only one with a problem), or if you never told the guy he was hired to play note for note, then this one falls on you.

What do the rest of the band members say? Are they pissed? Do THEY tell the drummer to get with the program? Do they even care if he plays note for note?

[mpdd]

i play with two different guys, i wish there was one who was a combo of the two

pro - can play any song, comes up with cool fills and breaks, pain in the butt as far as transportation and doesnt have a drum set or any money

non pro - can't keep time well or play fills, led zep clear vistalite set, own truck, own PA

[ryco]

There's a big difference between learning a song groove "just like on the record" or listening and learning how the basic feel and groove functions between bass & drums.

I don't expect a drummer to learn every lick and fill note for note perfect - but I would like him/her to get the basic feel of how the kick/snare and bass lock in on the rhythm patterns forming the signature grooves.

Unless you're the kind of band that takes the time and has the imagination and skill set to truly rearrange a song and "make it your own". Please don't call slopping through a song "an arrangement" - truly craft it into something interesting. Just my 2¢.

[Flyingfrets]

Originally Posted by Sludgemuffin

I just feel like...when youre covering a song...and getting paid for playing cover songs...well then...you should get the song as close as possible to the actual song. Obviously the singer isnt gonna be the same...so they are off the hook. But the rest of us...come on...its not too much to ask.

Guess we're in the minority here, but I agree with you. My band's rep is staked on replicating what you hear on those classic, old Beatles LPs.

Not our job to reinterpret Lennon & McCartney. Our job is to give folks what they want, and compared to the bookings an aquaintence's Beatles cover band gets (who sort of "wing it"), what most of the folks willing to part with their money is, is us. Works for me...

[NYCbassist]

It's hard to say without seeing some video or hearing some examples. A drummer would almost have to go out of his way to make a song unrecognisable by the audience. There are cover tunes where the Drums & Bass lock in on numerous fills. It would bother be if the drummer didn't follow me for those fills but the song wouldn't be drastically altered. I had one band where my drummer & I both enjoyed "Living on a Prayer" because of the way we'd lock in. It was like a high 5 moment hitting the silly little flurry of notes/beats in perfect time together. If you and your drummer don't gel then it may just never work out for you.

[Depth_Charge]

I have never been in a cover band where at least one member wasn't of the opinion that "close enough is good enough". Sometimes close enough really was good enough. Sometimes it wasn't. I'm more a note for note guy myself, and my pet hate is drummers who have a "one beat fits all" mentality.

Song2 by Blur straight up on the intro? Ugh.
Take Me Out by Franz Ferdinand with a rock beat? Ugh.
I could go on, and on, and on...

[St Drogo]

Ya it bothers me too. Especially if you're getting paid.

Some drummers don't realise a drumkit is not simply a timekeeper, like a big wooden stopwatch. It's an instrument unto itself. Just because you don't (necessarily) have pitch like other instruments, doesn't mean you can't emote, or say something with it. You're not a drummachine who we feed a time signature, tempo and press play on. Play your drums, don't just work them.

[NYCbassist]

I just thought of a great solution. Using a positive approach, Tell your Drummer about some cool parts of songs where it's real fun for the Bass & Drums to play tight together. Then offer to come over and practice the parts together to get them nice and tight. He should be excited about the opportunity to play certain parts tightly together. Otherwise he's not really a drummer. Rather he's just going through the motions. My drummer is the opposite, He constantly calls out to me during rehearsal and makes sure we lock in when we're supposed to. And I love it. Stuff like "The Same Thing" By the Allman Bro's. It's either tight or it sounds like crud. I just don't get all this friction between Drummers and bass players. I wouldn't stand for it. IMO we are a team. "The Rhythm section" It's not up to the rest of the band either. The drummer & Bass player NEED to have a certain bond or it just is gonna suck IMO

[mellowinman]

It's a simple rule.

IF you play in a cover band, you have to be able to play all songs like the original artist, to some degree. Does that mean you have to actually PERFORM it just like that? Not always. But it's the jumping off point.

If the part is ICONIC, and you don't play it, you are disappointing your audience. If I wanted to disappoint my audience, I would just play whatever I want to. Believe me, I could take a pretty good run at it.

"And now, we're going to do the rock version of 'The Rite of Spring' for the next three hours."

You get the idea.

We have finally gotten this drummer thing solved, and it took seven tries in four years.

I don't regret firing any of them, or having any of them quit.

I don't miss any of those guys. In fact, from time to time I think of sending them thank you notes for not being around these days.

[jungleheat]

Originally Posted by Groovy_Gravy

exact covers suck and take 0 creativity..make it your own...

There's a sea of difference between "creatively" rearranging a cover, and just being too damn lazy to actually learn the part.

Originally Posted by Groovy_Gravy

yet they still would have no clue its different as long as you say "dont stop believing" like your balls are in a vice grip

LOL, good one!

Originally Posted by Sludgemuffin

Ironically...hes the only guy in the band who insists on being paid. The rest of us just do it for the fun.

Well...that irks me. Hes the only guy in the band that doesnt want to play non-paying gigs...but hes not willing to sit down and get it together.

That really sucks and I probably wouldn't deal with that for very long.

For an original band, by all means, do some interesting interpretations of covers. Type O Negative would do gothy/metal covers of stuff like Seals and Crofts, Neil Young, Doors, Beatles, etc... and they made it their own. It wasn't because they couldn't play the actual parts, they are all great musicians.

But for a cover band playing bars? Come on man, nobody wants to hear your "artist's interpretation" of Brown Eyed Girl. GTFO. Just play the damn song already and move on to the next one.

Context is important. And sure, a vast portion of your audience won't notice and/or won't care. But some will. And you are failing with those people. Even if it's only 20%, that could be the difference between a $500 payout and a $600 payout next time around.

[St Drogo]

Originally Posted by Groovy_Gravy

Some people do not like note for note covers. you can still do great covers and not cop them note for note...just think, grateful dead, hendrix, phish, etc...

Imo the approach to a coverband should be completely different to an originals band. People hire a coverband because they want the big songs at their party. Not the band necessarily. If they hired hendrix, they hired HENDRIX, and they'd be dissappointed if he brought out an acoustic to play all along the watchtower exactly like dylan. They wanted the hendrix version.

But i've never heard of people planning a wedding wanting this or that coverbands specific version of a song. No, you are paid to play them as is.

I understand that this does not scratch a certain creative itch or can even be painful to your pride as a musician, but people don't hire you, they hire the music. You can do whatever you want with your own band and time.

[pbass6811]

Originally Posted by Hobobob

I agree with you, OP. In my cover band, we all agree to learn the tunes as close as possible to the original versions, then once we all know the song we decide to change certain things (endings, lead breaks, etc.) The only time we listen to a song at rehearsal is when we're ahead of schedule and decide to start learning a new song then and there. Our band is super tight, and we're always getting props from audience members on how close we sound to the recording. If I want to be creative, I'll write for one of my solo bands. This cover group serves as a challenge to learn songs note for note, keeping my ear sharp, and then playing them for audiences who love the music and love dancing. If anybody wants to begrudge me for that, go ahead. I don't play for opinionated bass players.

I totally agree with this. This is the exact same scenario that my band is in. We learn the songs "the right way", then change and adapt as necessary. Do I play bass parts that are 100% accurate all the time? Probably not. There's always a chance that you can "improve" a part, but I'll never show up for a practice not know how the song is supposed to be played. As much as some people want to bash those of us that make a living playing "OPM", I personally think it's a cool compliment when a bar patron, that paid to be at the bar, comes up to one of us and says "I thought the jukebox was playin'. You guys are pretty damn good!"

I've been doing this 3-5 nights/week for the last decade+ and it never ceases to amaze me the sheer amount of people that come out EVERY week/end to watch a band and listen to the same music they can sit at home and listen to on the radio. It's because when we play a song, it sounds like THE song...

In other words, NO, it's not asking too much.

[JEDI BASS]

Here's my opinion, observations and experiences.... if anyone cares .

Many of the cover bands in my area that play the songs "their way" are simply taking shortcuts and mutilating the songs. It drives me and the real music lovers in the crowd nuts. If you can keep the original groove in tact, which for me means the drums and bass, then COOL! I can figure out a bass line in a few minutes, but recreating a hit requires the whole band to get together and rewrite or restructure a song and then rehearse it. Cover bands around here are all about minimal rehearsal time (older people w/ families and jobs) and maximum number of gigs (dependent on everyone's schedules) for maximum pay. The cover bands that form and gig 3 weeks later... they usually play dives for minimal pay because they butcher songs.

About drummers: It took me a while (2 weeks and 3 tryouts) to find a drummer that did his homework and learned songs at home... the others were told they didn't get the job because they didn't learn the songs.... that simple! "Take your slacker @55 back to your basement" is what I should've told 'em LOL, but I was professional about it. I've made sure that my current band's lineup is full of like-minded musos that want our band to impress as well as entertain. We have 2 singers (a female and a male who can also play a little rhythm guitar), a lead guitar/keys player, a drummer, and me. If an original song was recorded using the same instruments we have, then we'll recreate it very closely live... with the singers doing their own thing at times, and a lead solo variation. Rap songs, old funk w/ horns and such, Lady Gaga etc etc... we'll do our best to keep the original groove but we have to use what instruments that we have. Those are the songs that we will "make our own" while maintaining the same feel as the original so people can still dance and sing along.

I disagree that a jukebox is the same as a cover band that plays the songs like they were recorded. A good band brings energy to a room, puts on a visual show as well as musical, engages with the crowd and gets them to dance, laugh, cheer, drink, etc etc. How many times have you seen people cheering and dancing at karaoke places? Happens all the time here. People respond differently to a live performance.

[Turxile]

While I don't expect my drummer to play 100% the original line, I expect them to play it the same every time. Well at least the bass drum and the snare, along with the general feel. Sure I can change what I am playing to lock into whatever beat, but that's for jam bands..

[ChrisB2]

Sludgemuffin, no, it's not too much to ask. Some songs have signature drum parts that MUST be played correctly. Your drummer is lazy.

What does the rest of the band say? Have you talked to anyone besides the drummer? You say he's new, I assume you had a hand in selecting him? Would you not also have the prerogative to discuss this problem with the others who helped pick him?

It's definitely a problem. Don't worry about the peanut gallery, it's easy to "make it your own," just play your natural style for every song. Oh, you can play it like the record, you say? Prove it. "Your way" = lazy in my book.

Hopefully some others in the band will get behind you on this. If not, I would be looking into other opportunities... but whether you consider leaving depends on the scene in your area, how much you like the band, other more positive aspects of your band that may outweigh this problem, the quality of other opportunities, many other factors... Not sure what you should do, but I agree with your concern 100%.

You are right no matter what anyone else says.