Learn the song Drummer! Is this too much to ask?

[lfmn16]

It's a little pompous, these people who say, "The rule is ..." or "you must ..." Sorry guys, you don't make the rules for other bands.

The REAL question here is, what did the drummer agree to? If no one talked to him about your expectations that he play the song exactly like the original BEFORE he joined the band, then you don't have the right to expect him to do that. If you did talk to him about playing the song exactly like the original then you do have a right to expect him to do that.

Each band gets to decide for themselves how closely they want to follow the original. Then the audience decides if they like what they hear and the club owners decide if they want to hire the band and how much they will pay the band.

If bands would have this simple discussion with prospective new members, it would save a lot of trouble. When I auditioned for my last band I told them straight up that I wasn't interested in being a juke box, and they were fine with that. My current band expects the bass part to sound close to the original and I agreed to that and that's how I play. In both cases expectations were discussed before I was offered and accepted the job.

Don't expect that because YOU believe playing like the original is some kind of "rule" that everyone else does.

[sratas]

Originally Posted by Sludgemuffin

I guess the thing that really bothers me is...the guy is a good drummer. He's been playing as long as Ive been playing bass.

Its not that he cant play well...its just that he doesnt actually apply hismelf to sit down and learn the song AS ITS PLAYED on the record.

For me...thats how I learned how to play. WAY back before youtube. I sat down and learned how to play the entire Piece of Mind CD by Iron Maiden...and the first side of Rush - Hemispheres.

I would listen to the song...follow the riff...STOP...Rewind...sometimes several times...figure out exactly what they were playing...do that through the whole song. AND THEN...play along with the song several times until I actually could play the song...right along with Steve Harris and Geddy Lee.

I still do the same thing today. Obviously...we cant play Rush and Iron Maiden in a bar setting. But Ill take the song we are learning...like Heartbreaker - Pat Benatar.

Sure...Ive heard the song a thousand times. But I had to sit myself down...and repeat the learning process...until I can play that song note for note...right along with the song.



I just feel like...when youre covering a song...and getting paid for playing cover songs...well then...you should get the song as close as possible to the actual song. Obviously the singer isnt gonna be the same...so they are off the hook. But the rest of us...come on...its not too much to ask.

you have to leave things go, man.
Not every musician is able to play a role in a true cover band. many are able to copy a certain style of playing but they simply are not intentioned to do that because they get bored.
I can understand this point pretty well, fire him, for its wealth, because he is not happy doing this, it's quite clear.
Myself, I don't like cover bands, i hate to sing the same way, play the same way etc. No amount of money could move me from this point.
No intention to judge your band at all here, I'm sure you all are true professionals with outstanding skills, simply this approach is not for everyone.

[Edward G.]

I have had a similar problem as the OP. One of the drummers I work with is an experienced hand with a spot-on time feel. However, if you want him to learn specific parts to new or unfamiliar music, it just won't get done. So you end up sounding competent, even good, to the audience, but unsatisfied with the effort. The guy doesn't have a clue of how many jobs and projects he has disqualified himself from for not being diligent enough in learning his parts. I won't recommend him for anything requiring any serious preparation. But when it comes to just throwing it out there, he's more than good enough. He's just such a dope. The only way to deal with him is to limit your professional contact with him.

[Factor88]

Originally Posted by lfmn16

Each band gets to decide for themselves how closely they want to follow the original. Then the audience decides if they like what they hear and the club owners decide if they want to hire the band and how much they will pay the band.

Those doing the chest thumping about how a band should NEVER play a cover like the original version or how a band should ONLY play a cover like the original should read the above qoute over and over again until they get it.

[BayStateBass]

To the OP;

You're not right, you're not wrong. It depends on what the viewpoint of the band is, as a whole, and what the expectation is. Yes, you might be "the weenie" in the minds of others if they do not share your view. If they do, then you're "right".

We have this discussion in our band. Our guy that's "you" is our vocalist. But he's learned that while we can get a pretty good take on a song and in a lot of cases get it close, we can't get it "just like" the recording. If we were that good we wouldn't be playing little dive bars and working day jobs.

Our drummer is excellent, but he does not duplicate the recordings. A lot comes from his experience as a union musician and being dropped in to a gig with no practices. Plus, he is quite creative. He will learn basic beat structure, stops, starts, etc, but the rest is all him.

Our guitars players do both. Some songs they nail almost to the note, others they get the general feel of it and make it theirs. Depends on level of difficulty, and whether or not the group likes the improv work better. In some cases what they do sounds way cooler than the original recording.

I do not duplicate the basslines. Well, in some cases I do. In some cases I'm just not as talented as the original artist was. Lots of times I change things up, but keep the same feel to the bassline. A lot depends on the song.

We must be doing something right because we get bookings and each of us has been approached by other bands who wanted to steal us away.

Our singer is more in the "duplicate it" camp. But he's new and he's adjusting to our group.

My thought, and it's just my thought, is that if people want to hear a song just like it was recorded, they'd go see a DJ. But they want to see live music and go for a fun show. They want to see the musicians and in many cases hear their style or take on things. Now this does not mean you can butcher a song to the point where it's unrecognizable (I've seen that and was not impressed).

Now for what is expected (and this is a lot, too);

Learning note for note takes a long time. In our case we all have day jobs, families, etc (except our BL, he is retired and he does this as his job). so our time is more limited for practicing than those who are full time musicians. With that being said you have to establish at what level you and the band are going to find a song "club-ready" because you might never get out of the cellar if your expectations are higher than the group can really commit to.

But again, there's no right or wrong answer here. You are asking the wrong question. You seem to state the group views you as "the weenie" and the "harda$$", so the question is not whether or not the drummer should learn the songs better, but whether or not the group offers the musical experience that YOU are looking for.

[drpepper]

Originally Posted by Sludgemuffin

It doesnt have to be perfect...but come on man...put in a little time to learn the beat for that song. At least get in the ball park...

Again...I have no problem making the song your own...but good grief...dont re-invent the song because you dont have the dedication to sit down and learn it.

Exactly! I totally get where you're coming from, 100%

It's not so much the what? of the matter but the why?

If the reason why songs are being re-invented is because one member of the band simply isn't learning them, it can be frustrating. I had several debates over this with my last band, and the source of the problem was usually the drummer.

I always felt that when we're learning a cover, the song that we're covering is the baseline that we're working from...learn that, so we have a common understanding. Then, if we want to "make it our own," go from there.

I think drummers are the usual culprits here because they can most easily get away with it, and you can still have a workable result. Guitar, bass, keyboards...you can't just decide to play anything you feel. I don't play note for note all the time, but altering the basic beat of a song can radically change its feel. If that change isn't made with intentionality, but instead because of laziness and winging it, the results are random. If the person doing the changing is on that page all alone, the result will tend to be substandard.

There were a few that drove me up the wall...Tom Petty - American Girl has a signature beat. This guy would not f'ing learn it. I came to question whether he was able to play it, but I couldn't believe that in the end. I'm not a drummer, but I was able to learn it; how could he not? I have a set in my garage. I found a youtube tutorial, and had it in a few minutes. Was it exactly beat for beat, with all of the footwork on the hi-hat? No. Absolutely not, but it went along with the song and would have been worlds better than the garbage he was playing. I pointed that the song didn't have the right feel and told him about the video and how it deconstructed the beat (being much better than trying to give it a quick listen and play something similar, as he had been doing). He violently objected to even taking a look at the video.

With Lit - My Own Worst Enemy, he was almost proud that he had never really listen to the song. For the most part, he did fine with it. Really, it's that easy, but never having really listened to it, the end didn't make sense or go along with his internal "feel" of what should happen, so that was never played right...maddening!

Same thing with The Middle.

There were several factors involved in my quitting, but those and things along those lines were definite considerations.

[kevteop]

Originally Posted by Groovy_Gravy

exact covers suck and take 0 creativity..make it your own...

Don't go there man. Next it will be 'Covers suck and take 0 creativity, play your own songs'

[Steve Dallman]

In my band, a three piece, we have to adapt any song we do into a three piece format. We CAN'T play most songs like the original. We don't have the instrumentation. I do agree that what's played on the recording should be the starting point. We've been playing long enough (we're around 60) to know what to do. I don't have to tell the guitar player and drummer what to play.

At church, we have several drummers, all excellent. The youngest is 15, the oldest around 55. They come to practice knowing the parts on the recordings and music we get a week before practice. We all get instruction sheets telling us what intros are needed, and how to do each verse, pre-chorus, chorus and ending and the order of each song. At practice, the worship leader will further instruct the drummer (we're talking about drummers) how he wants each part if any changes are needed. They never have to tell any drummer twice. It's orderly, and professional and the results are great. It's a joy to play there. We have two leaders. One was a touring bass player with some big names in CCM. I just happen to play like he does (coincidence) and he doesn't have to tell me what to play. The other has a distinct strumming style, and things work best if I cop his style, while linking the acoustic guitar to the drums.

This stuff takes time. Drummers have really improved over the years. Look how many pro acts are basically mediocre garage bands, held together and lifted up by an excellent drummer...Red Hot Chili Peppers, Pearl Jam and many others.

Bar band drummers run the gamut. Musicians can be lazy...I know I can be. Some will put in the effort, some won't. Good drummers will. Our drummers at church are the most scrutinized of our musicians. Bass players the least. We all audition. We have a drummer "in training" at the moment. She is good. She is more than adequate. But she is not quite up to the level of our regular drummers...at the moment.

The drummers you are having trouble with are just not good enough. But they may be what is out there for the level of your band. You can listen to all the advice here on Talkbass. But you are left with the same drummer and the same problems. He's the one you need to talk to, along with the whole band. Work these things out. It's part of a successful band, whatever successful is to you.

[Edward G.]

Ya gotta know the rules before you break the rules. Otherwise you're just being careless.

[Nashrakh]

Originally Posted by Edward G.

Ya gotta know the rules before you break the rules. Otherwise you're just being careless.

Well said.

My band has a similar problem with people not showing up prepared... For us it's keys and, who would have guessed, drums. They're also the only two instrumentalists in the band that DON'T play their instruments outside rehearsal. Our keys player has a darn good ear so he can pick up and play anything you throw at him, but the drummer... Ugh. For the most part he can cop the drum beats of the songs we cover but he is unbeliebably sloppy and rushes all the damn time... It shows that both of them don't practice. Our singers cheat all the time with their lyrics sheets... And the guitar player goofs off during songs sometimes because the others can't nail their parts (started a side project with him and our rehearsals are much more structured and we show up knowing our ****...)

Sometimes I feel like our rehearsals are what others here have called group music lessons lol. So I can relate to the OP even when leaving aside the issue of whether to play like on record or not. With our drummer it's so bad that we as a band have a much easier time keeping time and grooving when he can't show up for rehearsal...

Tldr one-post realization of how awful my band is because they're slobs

[ChrisB2]

I guess I should elaborate on my earlier post.

I mean no disrespect to anyone here. If I ruffled any feathers I apologize; I shouldn't have blanketed everyone who deviates from the record as "lazy." I'm certain that many who deviate are capable of copying the record and are not lazy.

And, I don't play every note exactly as it is on the record. I play many notes exact, and try to get as close as possible to the feel and groove, and to stay true to the original, but I've said before in other threads that IMO getting every note exact in 4 hours of songs is not even possible, it's not even practical to try.

What I should have said is that, IMO, cover bands should try to sound like the original because that's what most cover band audiences want to hear. That requires certain signature parts to sound close to, even "exactly like," the original part. As others have said, these are hit songs and don't need improvement. However, if someone wants to play it "their way" and the band agrees and the audience approves, who am I to disapprove??

I still say, though, that some people play "their way" because either A) they're incapable of playing the part correctly, or B) they're lazy. And this drummer seems to be the lazy type, since he played his audition song like the record, but now that he's in the band he does not copy the record or create parts that are equal to the record (i.e. he's playing dumbed-down utility beats without the signature parts).

Personally, I would find it very difficult to rearrange a song and make it sound anywhere nearly as good as the original, widely popular version, and too much work for really no payoff except possibly trying to stroke my own ego. And I would be concerned that audiences would be disappointed in hearing a "reinterpretation."

Those who like to "play it your way" and have discussed this with your band and your band agrees and that's what you do, I have some questions; do you spend time creating parts that are different but better than or equal to the original? Or do you sometimes find yourself playing something different just because it's easier than the record? Or do you just like to play whatever falls under your fingers naturally and think it's just as good? Who is the judge of the quality of your interpretation of the song?

No offense, I'm genuinely curious...

[prd004]

PS: if a drummer plays a standard AC/DC-ish drumbeat behind every song, he's not a good drummer.

[ChrisB2]

Originally Posted by lfmn16

The REAL question here is, what did the drummer agree to? If no one talked to him about your expectations that he play the song exactly like the original BEFORE he joined the band, then you don't have the right to expect him to do that.

OP may not have the right to expect anything, but the collective "band" has the right to do whatever it wants (depending on the structure). If the "band" decides they NOW want to sound like the record, it doesn't matter what was agreed to before.

Besides, the drummer auditioned by playing like the record. Even if it wasn't discussed, he implied that's how he played, making it reasonable to expect him to continue doing so. Otherwise he pulled a bait-and-switch.

I agree some discussion is needed. The collective "band" needs to decide how they're going to sound, and everyone gets on board with that...

IMO

[Biggbass]

You are preaching to the choir here. I wonder why the 'drummer won't learn the songs, isn't consistent with fills and set ups, blows the endings" threads keep coming up.
I am still working thru a PITA drummer scenario and tomorrow night is "come to Jesus" night for the drummer who is currently the bane of my musical existence. I'm moving towards a zero tolerance attitude. If he cannot get the songs down them I am kicking out the songs he continually screws up.
I'd love to fire the guy but I'm just once voice out of 7. So I'll play my cards, which affect the songs I wrote and sing, and at least put an end to the misery he brings to those tunes.

[pbassnut]

Not being able to hear you guys play together, it's hard to judge just how closely to the record you want it to be versus how far away from it your drummer is playing it. However, I will say this ... for the most part, the bands/artists who originally recorded the songs you are trying to play can't or don't play their songs "exactly like the record" because live and studio are two different animals and there are often extra parts added in the studio and it's too expensive to travel with enough musicians in the roadshow to replicate. I play blues ... mostly covers and try to capture the spirit of the song as best as I can. However, I have to be flexible because in the blues scene around my area, most players play in multiple bands so the lineups can vary, there are few (if ever) rehearsals and all of the classic blues standards have been covered by many artists and there are many ways of doing them. Quite honestly, (even in a cover band situation) isn't it more fun and rewarding to put a little bit of yourself into it?

[Edward G.]

Originally Posted by Biggbass

I am still working thru a PITA drummer scenario and tomorrow night is "come to Jesus" night for the drummer who is currently the bane of my musical existence. I'm moving towards a zero tolerance attitude. If he cannot get the songs down them I am kicking out the songs he continually screws up.

You realize that's his strategy, don't you?

[BayStateBass]

One thing I don't know if anyone has mentioned, and this can make it hard for drummers;

Because of the time involved in setting up, most leave their drums at a practice space. It can be a real PIA to move the set in and out for each practice.

Unless they have two kits, or access to their drums at whim, they are basically learning to play their parts via "air-drums".

In this respect we have it easy. Take our bass with us and practice at home. Many drummers aren't in this position.

Just a thought.

[Edward G.]

Originally Posted by BayStateBass

One thing I don't know if anyone has mentioned, and this can make it hard for drummers;

Because of the time involved in setting up, most leave their drums at a practice space. It can be a real PIA to move the set in and out for each practice.

Unless they have two kits, or access to their drums at whim, they are basically learning to play their parts via "air-drums".

In this respect we have it easy. Take our bass with us and practice at home. Many drummers aren't in this position.

Just a thought.

Well, sometimes I wish I played sax, but I'm stuck with what I play. I'm definitely glad I don't play keys. Pro-oriented drummers make provisions to sound good. No sympathy here.

[JEDI BASS]

Originally Posted by Biggbass

I am still working thru a PITA drummer scenario and tomorrow night is "come to Jesus" night for the drummer who is currently the bane of my musical existence. I'm moving towards a zero tolerance attitude. If he cannot get the songs down them I am kicking out the songs he continually screws up.

Originally Posted by Edward G.

You realize that's his strategy, don't you?

YEAH MAN! Kick out the drummer, not the songs! I used to work with a bully drummer, and this is one tactic he used to get his way. He was replaced and has since sold all his drums cause no one could work with him. That's what ya get when you're a jerk!

[agreatheight]

There is no right or wrong as to how to play covers. The important thing is that all the people in the band are on the same page.

My current cover band does 90% - we learn most lines to the best of our abilities, but cheat when we need to, or change when we want to. We are all on the same page, it's what everyone agreed to, and we listen when suggestions and requests come up. Everyone is happy.