A Message to Club Owners

[Raymeous]

Great article and so friggin true. This is what I've been thinking for years.

Originally Posted by ACNick
Venues only sees a portion of what the band does for the gig. They don't see the time spent practicing, the players investment in gear, transportation... there is a lot more that goes in to playing those gigs than just the four hours on stage.

ACNick -
This is spot on as well. Just 'cause a song is 3 minutes long doesn't mean it only takes 3 minutes to come up with it or learn it, or get to the point where your band can perform it. As for the gear thing that's like asking a chef to bring his own ovens, refrigerators, and groceries to your restaraunt to apply for the head chef position, yet that is precisely what happens to musicians all of the time.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by Pet Sounds

One down side to playing for cheap: If the word gets out, you'll get lowballed by OTHER club owners.

Word gets out and you set a low pay bench mark for your band.

For example, here's a question;

In Milwaukee who do you think gets approached to do all the high profile fund raisers and benefits and why?

Blue

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by fivestringgecko

Pet, I agree for sure. It hasn't really come up in discussion yet, but Blue's suggestion of a band manager is a good one and something I've thought about. I'll do some research on that and present findings to the band. Right now, the drummer is our "agent."

5sg.

Then I would think that 6.80 an hour booking should spawn a serious conversation with him.

Blue

[fivestringgecko]

Originally Posted by bluewine

Then I would think that 6.80 an hour booking should spawn a serious conversation with him.

Blue

Be calm, man... I kind of get the vibe you're getting irritated with me for the my band taking that gig. It was my first gig with the group, and they've only had 3-4 total. I was happy to have my gas money covered and FINALLY be in a band that plays Tower of Power!

The conversation will definitely come up when the time is right, we're all professional musicians with other gigs as well, so I'm sure people will want to start getting paid more (if we can) and the discussion will happen soon enough. Either that or we find other bands that get paid a little more.

So another question then, to keep the discussion moving: how many of you guys do use agents/talent managers/etc? And what are your experiences with them?

5sg.

[Eric Perry]

Where I live currently, I made *substantially* more than $30 a show. When I lived in Denver (6/08 - 7/09) I didn't gig at all, because the few bands I spoke to all informed me I'd not only be making almost no money at all, but at many of the "better" clubs (Herman's Hideaway, for example), I'd be sharing the stage with a bunch of other bands on any given night.


No thanks.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by fivestringgecko

Be calm, man... I kind of get the vibe you're getting irritated with me for the my band taking that gig. It was my first gig with the group, and they've only had 3-4 total. I was happy to have my gas money covered and FINALLY be in a band that plays Tower of Power!

The conversation will definitely come up when the time is right, we're all professional musicians with other gigs as well, so I'm sure people will want to start getting paid more (if we can) and the discussion will happen soon enough. Either that or we find other bands that get paid a little more.

So another question then, to keep the discussion moving: how many of you guys do use agents/talent managers/etc? And what are your experiences with them?

5sg.

Fivestring,

I'm the world's biggest Rocco and TOP fan. I have been going to their shows for the past 40 plus years.

Maybe it's why I'm a little sensitive. I'm thinking your band is good.

"Give away Bon Jovi , give away "Journey" but don't give away TOP."

Fivestring, were a 4 piece blues/ rock band booking $400.00 - $500.00 4 hour biker bar gigs.

We don't use an agency for our product it's not worth it and Milwaukee Agencies generally won't represent blues/ rock bands.

An 11 piece band like yours is a different story.



Blue

[tbirdsp]

5sg - thanks, you made me feel better about booking my 5 piece blues/classic rock weekend warriors for 200 bucks for our first gig (although we were 4 piece when I booked it - added keys later or I would have asked 250). If I can't make 50 bucks it's almost not worth rolling out the door.

Other factors here though - I own the PA and this place is 3 blocks from my house, I get along well with the owner, and he is accomodating us wanting to change the time from 9-1 to 8-12 for next gig (he is paying 250). This is just a small neighborhood place on the end of a strip mall. We are playing mostly for fun - but serious fun. I have been out of the scene for many years, so it's tough for me to judge what to try to get. I'm thinking $100 per person is a good goal at first, but should probably become the minimum once we get our name out there. Our band should be getting $400-500 per night, going by what I've heard from some friends playing in the area. Need to get some professional promo pics/video and better demos recorded before we ask that kind of money though.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by Eric Perry

Where I live currently, I made *substantially* more than $30 a show. When I lived in Denver (6/08 - 7/09) I didn't gig at all, because the few bands I spoke to all informed me I'd not only be making almost no money at all, but at many of the "better" clubs (Herman's Hideaway, for example), I'd be sharing the stage with a bunch of other bands on any given night.

No thanks.

I don't blame you.

Blue

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by tbirdsp

Our band should be getting $400-500 per night.

I agree. You would be surprised how much cash flows through the till at a packed corner bar by 1:00.

I always have my eye on the register action.

There's usually $$ for everyone.

Blue

[nortonrider]

Working Band - Hobby Band,
Two completely different things, Different Goals.

If the goal is to make money, Then focus on doing that.
A lot of peoples goal is to just to have fun and make some music.
A big payday isn't their primary motivation, Playing their instruments for others
being first and foremost.

I would venture to guess that there are a whole lot more Amateur Musicians
in this world than there are Professionals.

Being a musician is a different game than being a Plumber.
There are probably not too many "amateur" plumbers out there willing to snake out your pipes just for fun.

[fivestringgecko]

Eric, that's one of the things I've been finding about Denver. I figured for sure that it would be a better market, but sadly it's been quite a struggle. Seems like the big thing out here is metal, metal, metal. I've struggled for quite a while to find like-minded musicians and have been close a few times, and have now found two bands I really enjoy and am doing a little freelance work as well. Took me about 9 years to get to this point though. I got a reply he best reply in response to a "funk bass player available ad (complete with a long list of influences) will always stick with me: a chick emailed me asking if I wanted to be in a metal opera band. Lol

No worries, Blue... I'm a little conflicted about it too, of course. And the whole subject of getting paid can be a sensitive subject even for "hobbyist" musicians that put all the energy and emotion into doing what we do. The above paragraph will give you a little insight as to why I'm currently on board with my funk band.

Tbird, it sounds like your band is in somewhat the same position as mine, just getting our name out there. We're still working on demos and such as well. We've been having fun with it so far, but making more money is also another goal. We'll see where it goes. Glad I could help you feel a little better about your first gig too.

Norton brings up a good point about amateur vs. professional bands. It brings up yet another question I'll throw out for discussion though...

Do the amateur bands out there playing for fun (or less money) ruin paying gigs for the professionals? Or is there enough of a difference where the two types of gigs are separate?

5sg.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

Working Band - Hobby Band,
Two completely different things, Different Goals.

If the goal is to make money, Then focus on doing that.
A lot of peoples goal is to just to have fun and make some music.
A big payday isn't their primary motivation, Playing their instruments for others
being first and foremost.

I would venture to guess that there are a whole lot more Amateur Musicians
in this world than there are Professionals.

Being a musician is a different game than being a Plumber.
There are probably not too many "amateur" plumbers out there willing to snake out your pipes just for fun.

That's certainly a valid opinion.

My opinion is slightly different.

I'm a weekend warrior, I have a regular corporate 9- 5. It's my career that allows me to be in a band.

While I live from my salary from my regular career, my goal with the band is to make as much extra money as I can and have fun playing for the bar crowds not family and friends.

Like the plumber, I ( and I hope there are others) am not willing to provide my bands services for free.

Blue

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by fivestringgecko

Do the amateur bands out there playing for fun (or less money) ruin paying gigs for the professionals? Or is there enough of a difference where the two types of gigs are separate?5sg.

Good question.

First of all, while I have fun while gigging, at the same time I'm not in it for fun. I'm in it for money.

Are we ruining it for professionals? I'm not sure.

If professionals depend on $400.00 - $500.00 small bar gigs, maybe. But to what degree?

I don't know.

Blue

[letsgethandsome]

Pay is always an issue one way or another for bands. I used to be in bands that demanded a premium and now as a weekend warrior/hobby player, I really don't care how much we get paid as long as it doesn't cost me out of pocket to play. But, we're a new band too trying to find our niche and audience.

Another thing to consider though... When we gig with other bands I never let it be known we don't care how much we get paid. If you get know as the band that will play for nothing I find that other bands trying to earn a fair wage will resent you. And understandably.

Most of us never get paid what is 'fair' for the time and energy and money we put in for what we do...

[nortonrider]

For just a moment.......
Consider being a musician like being a Race Car driver.

For the vast majority, their winnings are not what makes them money.
They have the initial investment of the car, tools, fuel, transportation, ect. and then have to pay an entrance fee to the track owner (pay to play?).

If they happen to "earn" any money from actually driving,that's all the better but The driving is just the act used to make them money.
Sponsorships, endorsements and Merch. sales are the real income generators.

Like Kiss and Jimmy Buffett, putting on their shows keeps their brand alive and people buying their products.

If a band approached the business like that, then the pittance of pay for a friday night bar gig would just be icing on the cake.

How about getting Businesses to "sponsor" your band, diversifying merchandise sales, ect... instead of counting on making a working "wage" from the venue.

Just food for thought.

[nortonrider]

Ever been to your local dirt track or demolition derby?

Those guys driving are pretty much paying the track owner to put on a show while
not making anything in return.

[Violen]

What makes me sad, is that weekend warriors have the oppertunity to make more money as a band because it is a Hobby. They can say ask for 500 dollars a night and if they want to say no, it wont stop them from paying rent or buying groceries.

But guys who really want to be professional musicians cant have that "plan b" or that "bread and butter" job. You have to bleed for your art. You have to love it and need it. Sometimes that means taking a prideful hit if you need to pay rent.

It doesn't mean we should ever get treated like crap by a venue, but at the same time it means Bills need to be paid, gigs need to be played. It sucks that because of trends in major markets we now have traditions like the band bringing in people instead of the venue. The problem we really face is how do we market to our audience, and what is the likely hood that they will actually want to go out and show up?

I play jazz, classical music, fusion and prog metal. All have different venues for their sound. Most of those styles appeal to a more mature adult. the kind of person who has a 9-5 job and kids. People who are too tired and busy to go see live music on any kind of regular basis.

let me turn this on its ear: How many of you are going out to see other bands? You dont leave the house unless you get paid, but do you go see other bands? Is your band the total size of your musical world?

I am not here to make enemies, and perhaps i should have slept more this morning. Just some things to think about.

[letsgethandsome]

Originally Posted by Violen

let me turn this on its ear: How many of you are going out to see other bands? You dont leave the house unless you get paid, but do you go see other bands? Is your band the total size of your musical world?

This is an awesome point. I used to be really good about that. Now with a 2 year old at home and another on the way, it is much much harder. I do feel like I certainly did in the past and will in the future...

But I do know lots of peeps that play that NEVER go out to see other bands....

[nortonrider]

I do try to support local musicians.
however the live music scene around here is pretty dead and what bands
do play usually start at 9 P.M.
I have to gear myself up for being out late because I am not much of a
"nightlife" bar patron anymore.

[NYCbassist]

Originally Posted by Violen

What makes me sad, is that weekend warriors have the oppertunity to make more money as a band because it is a Hobby. They can say ask for 500 dollars a night and if they want to say no, it wont stop them from paying rent or buying groceries.

But guys who really want to be professional musicians cant have that "plan b" or that "bread and butter" job. You have to bleed for your art. You have to love it and need it. Sometimes that means taking a prideful hit if you need to pay rent.

It doesn't mean we should ever get treated like crap by a venue, but at the same time it means Bills need to be paid, gigs need to be played. It sucks that because of trends in major markets we now have traditions like the band bringing in people instead of the venue. The problem we really face is how do we market to our audience, and what is the likely hood that they will actually want to go out and show up?

I play jazz, classical music, fusion and prog metal. All have different venues for their sound. Most of those styles appeal to a more mature adult. the kind of person who has a 9-5 job and kids. People who are too tired and busy to go see live music on any kind of regular basis.

let me turn this on its ear: How many of you are going out to see other bands? You dont leave the house unless you get paid, but do you go see other bands? Is your band the total size of your musical world?

I am not here to make enemies, and perhaps i should have slept more this morning. Just some things to think about.

I can't disagree with any of this. I am a weekend warrior but I have 2 other mouths to feed. Otherwise I'd be sleeping in my car if I had to to be a working bass player.

The best thing you can do is gain a following. Try everything you can to get people to come to your gigs. Facebook, Youtube etc...If people like you and keep coming to your shows, You can push for more money. Definitely have a guest book by the stage and ask everyone in the crowd to enter their email address and invite them to your next show. It can either Snowball or Fizzle out depending on how good(or likeable) your band is. A Shtick always helps