A Message to Club Owners

[fivestringgecko]

Originally Posted by Violen

let me turn this on its ear: How many of you are going out to see other bands? You dont leave the house unless you get paid, but do you go see other bands? Is your band the total size of your musical world?

That's a pretty good point right there too. I enjoy seeing live music and while I don't get out for it as much as I'd like, I enjoy seeing live local music. Call it what you will... networking, supporting other bands or just plain getting out of the house... we want people to see us, so it's important to go see others as well. Everyone in my funk band has other gigs (between the 11 of us, we have a combined total of 24 regular gigs, and whatever freelance we do), and we do a pretty good job of supporting each other at the very least. I've been proud of people in both of my bands coming to see each other, which is totally cool.

However, what I see happening is exactly what the author of that article touched on... We're supporting the bands, not the venues. I don't just go to Herman's Hideaway to see music, I follow the bands I like and if they happen to be there, that's where I go. If venues would get smart, pay decent money for good bands and promote themselves, they'd become known for it and that's where I'd want to go on my Friday night.

5sg.

[dnosewor]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

I do try to support local musicians.
however the live music scene around here is pretty dead and what bands
do play usually start at 9 P.M.
I have to gear myself up for being out late because I am not much of a
"nightlife" bar patron anymore.

Bands there start at 9? I would love to start that early. Bands around here don't usually start until 11. It really sucks when I play a gig on Friday and Saturday night and don't get home until 3:30 am each night. And then have to get up with two young kids in the house.

So, because of the late starts of bands around here, I'm guilty of not getting out that often to support other local bands.

[SBsoundguy]

Originally Posted by morewattsplease

You know, I agree that it is sad that we all as musicians don't get more compensation for what we do to become giggable musicians, but at the same time, when I got into music I knew i was going to be in a similar situation as when I realized that my dreams as a 4 year old to play in the NHL were pipe dreams...Getting paid good money to play music is not a sure thing.

I went to college for philosophy, I'm not crying about not having millions of dollars waiting for me to spew my thoughts on levinas' theories of time love and ethics, and if you went to college for music you should realize that not everyone wants to slave away at something they hate to pay you to do something you love.

Not every venue is in the position to do a crap load of advertising
Not everything that is popular is bad, maybe your band should be more appealing to the masses in a capitalist economy if your goal is to succeed in a capitalist economy
I work at a place that is basically a family fun center and we hold music events on the weekends. We are struggling economically, and the musicians realize that playing at our place is not a way to pay the rent, but rather an opportunity to play out.
What happened to being grateful for someone giving you a place to play? This thread reminds me of the kid crying because he got a 16 gig ipod instead of the 32 gig.

Some venues probably make bank and still pay poorly, but not all.

I guess doctors should just be grateful that hospitals allow them to use their facilities to work on patients. Compensation doesn't matter at all.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

For just a moment.......
Consider being a musician like being a Race Car driver.

For the vast majority, their winnings are not what makes them money.
They have the initial investment of the car, tools, fuel, transportation, ect. and then have to pay an entrance fee to the track owner (pay to play?).

If they happen to "earn" any money from actually driving,that's all the better but The driving is just the act used to make them money.
Sponsorships, endorsements and Merch. sales are the real income generators.

Like Kiss and Jimmy Buffett, putting on their shows keeps their brand alive and people buying their products.

If a band approached the business like that, then the pittance of pay for a friday night bar gig would just be icing on the cake.

How about getting Businesses to "sponsor" your band, diversifying merchandise sales, ect... instead of counting on making a working "wage" from the venue.

Just food for thought.

Sounds good, however not the best comparison imo.

The instances where local new bands are going to see any residuals from pay to play are far and few in between.

Tbirds analysis makes much more sense to me.

Blue

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by dnosewor

Bands there start at 9? I would love to start that early. Bands around here don't usually start until 11. It really sucks when I play a gig on Friday and Saturday night and don't get home until 3:30 am each night. And then have to get up with two young kids in the house.

So, because of the late starts of bands around here, I'm guilty of not getting out that often to support other local bands.

Are you talking head lining an originals show. 11:00PM sounds awfully late.

For cover bands in Milwaukee it's either an 8-12 or 9-1 show.

Blue

[fivestringgecko]

Originally Posted by bluewine

The instances where local new bands are going to see any residuals from pay to play are far and few in between.

True, but by going to see and support new and local bands, isn't that a way of showing venues that bands can bring in a crowd and therefore they might be willing to pay a little more next time, making things better for all of us?

(I know those aren't exactly the right words... Hopefully you guys get my meaning...)

5sg.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by letsgethandsome

This is an awesome point. I used to be really good about that. Now with a 2 year old at home and another on the way, it is much much harder. I do feel like I certainly did in the past and will in the future...

But I do know lots of peeps that play that NEVER go out to see other bands....

I love supporting local cover and originals bands. I ask people to come to my shows. It just seems fair. Plus I always learn something

I'm 59, divorced kids are grown. I come and go as I please.

Blue

[two fingers]

I am in the beautiful position of not depending on music for the bills. For this reason I don't put up with club owner crap any more. I tell them no more than I tell them yes. And when I tell them no I tell them WHY.

Funny thing. I still play all I want. I could play every single weekend if I wanted (but I don't).

[dnosewor]

Originally Posted by bluewine

Are you talking head lining an originals show. 11:00PM sounds awfully late.

For cover bands in Milwaukee it's either an 8-12 or 9-1 show.

Blue

This is a typical bar gig for any type music. We're and Irish/Celtic rock band. We play from 11:00 to 2:30 usually. Sometimes 10:30 to 2:30. Bars close at 3am here.

I'm on the east coast of Canada. We have a street here that consists of only bars and pubs. apparently it has the most bars per square foot of any street in North America. Live music at just about every bar. Some bars will have bands start at 5 or so and have a couple bands playing before the headliner starts at 11. Other places don't open until 10 and the band will start at 11 and play until close. It's a pretty unique place I think.

[mjac28]

Club Owners< Bands= You get what you get and if you don't like it walk and wait for the next opportunity.

[tbirdsp]

I try to get out to hear other bands, but rehearsals and gigs take up pretty much all of my "kitchen passes" away from my family. I have a wife and 10 yo daughter.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by two fingers

I am in the beautiful position of not depending on music for the bills.

That would be most of us in this forum.

Blue

[nortonrider]

Originally Posted by bluewine

That would be most of us in this forum.

Blue

Then why do you think that so many are obsessed with being in a gigging band and getting paid?

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

Then why do you think that so many are obsessed with being in a gigging band and getting paid?

Here are a few thoughts and a story.

I can only speak for myself. While my strait career pays my bills.

That $100.00 in my pocket after a show from gigging in a rock band means a lot more to me than my salary. It makes me feel like somebody.

If I work I want financial compensation whether I need it or not.

No offence to anyone, however if I was packing up all my gear at 1:30am after a gig and I walked away empty handed I would feel like a "chump". But, as I always say, that's just me.

I just love the fact that I learned how to make money from something I actually like doing at a young age.

I don't like 9-5ing it at all.

I remember one of my first bbq gigs when I was maybe 12 or 13 and when I was done some adult handed me a twenty.

Hmmmm, I play music I get a commission. Not a bad deal.


Just a side note, when anyone asks me what I do, I never say I'm a regional sales representative for xyz corp. I say, I'm the bass player for the abc band.

Blue

[Jebberz]

Originally Posted by dnosewor

This is a typical bar gig for any type music. We're and Irish/Celtic rock band. We play from 11:00 to 2:30 usually. Sometimes 10:30 to 2:30. Bars close at 3am here.

I'm on the east coast of Canada. We have a street here that consists of only bars and pubs. apparently it has the most bars per square foot of any street in North America. Live music at just about every bar. Some bars will have bands start at 5 or so and have a couple bands playing before the headliner starts at 11. Other places don't open until 10 and the band will start at 11 and play until close. It's a pretty unique place I think.

Hi!

What is your place? I might stop by in my next trip to the coast, it seems interesting.

[ssabass]

A great article. There is no union that will enforce a good wage, so it is up to the body of musicians out there to convince the club owners to seek quality professionals in all aspects, including its live musicians, and that is makes good business sense. Working against that is the huge body of weekend warriors who will work for next to nothing just to have the pleasure of playing for people. That is your competition, and they set precedent, at least for the venues that don't cater to professional quality music. This battle will always exist, and during economic hard times, it will impact the professional player who is scraping the barrel to make ends meet.

I work in the film industry for my profession, and the old timers here talk about the unions in the old days. The union reps would break legs to get work. By this I mean they would, as one tale goes, send a union rep to a town, and tell the local theater owner that he needs to hire union projectionists, exclusively. The theater owner would say no- hit the road, we don't need your stupid union- not going to happen, forget it. Then the thug would break the guys leg. After that, the theater would hire union projectionists, exclusively. Then the union rep would travel to the next town. Word would have traveled quickly, and they knew if they saw the union rep, they would hire union, or wind up with a broken bone. Now that unions are in place, they use other methods to convince employers to pay well. Reasoning with venue owners might work too- it just takes longer and might not see the kind of results bone snapping and general thuggery might get

[fivestringgecko]

Thanks for your input ssabass. You bring up the subject of unions, which is an interesting one...

I've heard/read about musician's unions and it seems like they can be hit or miss. I looked into the Denver Musicians Association a while back, and the information I found on my own with the experience of a couple others didn't make it seem worth it to join. They seem to deal primarily with classical/orchestral musicians and teachers, rather than band/artist management.

5sg.

[Richland123]

Originally Posted by dnosewor

This is a typical bar gig for any type music. We're and Irish/Celtic rock band. We play from 11:00 to 2:30 usually. Sometimes 10:30 to 2:30. Bars close at 3am here.

I'm on the east coast of Canada. We have a street here that consists of only bars and pubs. apparently it has the most bars per square foot of any street in North America. Live music at just about every bar. Some bars will have bands start at 5 or so and have a couple bands playing before the headliner starts at 11. Other places don't open until 10 and the band will start at 11 and play until close. It's a pretty unique place I think.

Clubs around here would be empty if bands started at 11 and played until 3. It used to be that bands played until 1 or 2 since the bars close at 2 but most places here are empty by 12 now. Many clubs have changed their band hours to 8-11 or 9-12 with a few still 10-1. We even have one private club that went to 7:30-10:30 and their crowd increased a lot.

One of the biggest reasons we get from our friends who don't come to see us often is that they say the bands start too late at some clubs.

[fourstringdrums]

We played a gig the other night where we didn't bring in a lot of people, but we didn't cover the minimum so we got none of the door cut we were promised. We would have only made about $50 , but because we were 3 people short, we were stiffed.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by ssabass

A great article. There is no union that will enforce a good wage, so it is up to the body of musicians out there to convince the club owners to seek quality professionals in all aspects, including its live musicians, and that is makes good business sense. Working against that is the huge body of weekend warriors who will work for next to nothing just to have the pleasure of playing for people.

What's next to nothing?

I'm a weekend warrior and for bar bands in Milwaukee the top of the range is $400.00. Occasionally we can get $500.00

By the way we do not play just for the pleasure of playing with people. We have a $400.00 minimum. If a bar can't meet the minimum we decline.

Blue