A Message to Club Owners

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by fourstringdrums

We played a gig the other night where we didn't bring in a lot of people, but we didn't cover the minimum so we got none of the door cut we were promised. We would have only made about $50 , but because we were 3 people short, we were stiffed.

Was it an originals club?

Blue

[JAUQO III-X]

At the end of the day don't blame it on the clubs, It's the musicians who are at fault.

And it's not hard for clubs to stay afloat when they make thousands of dollars a night selling watered down drinks and offer the musicians peanuts.

I don't have sympathy for musicians who perform for slave wages and then complain.

At the end of the day the musicians rarely benefit. But again that's of their own doing.

Musicians/bands should stop being caught up in the glamor of music and focus on the business of music.

[nortonrider]

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

Musicians/bands should stop being caught up in the glamor of music and focus on the business of music.

Why?

[fivestringgecko]

Originally Posted by bluewine

What's next to nothing?

I'm a weekend warrior and for bar bands in Milwaukee the top of the range is $400.00. Occasionally we can get $500.00

By the way we do not play just for the pleasure of playing with people. We have a $400.00 minimum. If a bar can't meet the minimum we decline.

Blue

Thanks again for your input, Blue... You've been clear on your stance, let's keep the discussion moving. Some of us are still struggling to find the balance of playing for enjoyment and getting paid. No need to rub it in that you're making more than us.

Originally Posted by fourstringdrums

We played a gig the other night where we didn't bring in a lot of people, but we didn't cover the minimum so we got none of the door cut we were promised. We would have only made about $50 , but because we were 3 people short, we were stiffed.

This is the kind of thing that drives home what the original article is about, I think. Venues think they can get away with this, because they ARE getting away with it... they expect the bands to promote and bring a crowd, and if/when we don't, they don't pay us because "we didn't meet our end of the bargain." It's only bad news for the venue, because word of mouth is a powerful thing. Eventually word spreads about how the venue treated you, and perhaps other musicians might not want to play there. I suspect your band will be smart and not play there next time?

Unfortunately, if there aren't a lot of venues with live music, they CAN and WILL treat bands like this because they know they have us under their thumb. And there will more than likely be a band willing to put up with it.

5sg.

[fivestringgecko]

Jauqo, I certainly agree that the majority of the responsibility is on the musicians/bands. BUT... if we focus solely on the business end, doesn't it then become a job? I obviously want to make money playing music as much as the next guy, but having it be enjoyable is an equal priority. I certainly don't want my music to become "a chore."

Sadly though, I don't think there will ever be a point where venues can't find live music because they're not paying enough. There are a ton of bands out there that jump at simply having a chance to play out, which keeps local music scenes stuck in the catch 22 we're discussing.

How does a band break through that level and get to the next where they can demand a higher pay and get it, without losing a gig to the next band who's playing for just a small bar tab?

5sg.

[nortonrider]

Originally Posted by fivestringgecko

Venues think they can get away with this...

Because they ARE getting away with it.

[JAUQO III-X]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

Why?

Getting caught up in the glamor allows them to be taken advantage of for one.


Looking the part of a musician isn't always the best way to go.

[JAUQO III-X]

Originally Posted by fivestringgecko

Jauqo, I certainly agree that the majority of the responsibility is on the musicians/bands. BUT... if we focus solely on the business end, doesn't it then become a job?

I obviously want to make money playing music as much as the next guy, but having it be enjoyable is an equal priority. I certainly don't want my music to become "a chore."

5sg.

Focusing on the business allows one to have a overall better future. And at the end of the day it really is a job.

Not being about business is one of the reasons most bands get no where.

Why should musicians be frantic to play for what amounts up to nothing while every one else reaps the benefits.


And most club owners know exactly what they are doing as they take advantage of musicians.

[nortonrider]

If you look at it from a club owners perspective,

he too has made an "investment" in the show.
Built a stage, bought a PA, provides the bathrooms, the electricity, ect.

They are in business to turn a profit, not to promote music, support struggling musicians
of stroke some bass players ego.

[NYCbassist]

Originally Posted by bluewine

What's next to nothing?

I'm a weekend warrior and for bar bands in Milwaukee the top of the range is $400.00. Occasionally we can get $500.00

By the way we do not play just for the pleasure of playing with people. We have a $400.00 minimum. If a bar can't meet the minimum we decline.

Blue

This is the same in NJ, PA & NC $400 - $500. There are some bigger clubs that pay more but it's tough to get in.

[JAUQO III-X]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

They are in business to turn a profit, not to promote music, support struggling musicians
of stroke some bass players ego.

The club and the band should promote the show.

When it's left up to the band only to promote the show that opens up the door for the perfect excuse of there was a low turn out, sorry guys.

How is offering a band pennies stroking ones ego?

Some clubs would hardly have any patrons if it weren't for live music.

[fivestringgecko]

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

Getting caught up in the glamor allows them to be taken advantage of for one.

Looking the part of a musician isn't the always the best way to go.

Yet another good point this thread has brought up.

Is there a difference between getting caught up in the glamour of being a musician and keeping it as just a part of our main goal? I mean, without the glamour aspect of it, wouldn't it just be another job?

I also very much agree that the venues should be doing their own promotion... that's what they're in business for. Like Norton said, they've invested in their venue, why WOULDN'T they promote it? Unfortunately, it goes back to taking advantage of musicians I think. And then stiffing us if it doesn't turn out the way they want. I've had experiences with some venues that have been very positive, but I agree, there are a lot out there that know exactly what they're doing.

5sg.

[nortonrider]

I think that the "job" of being a musician is where the confusion sets in.

In reality......Someone playing music can either be considered an Artist or a Tradesman.
Both are at different ends of the spectrum and viewed from a different prospective.

Take some of the other "Arts" for example.

Many people take pictures, few actually sell theirs.. but both are considered as practicing Photography.
Is it a gallerys responsibility to pay for someones "work" if someone else is willing to display theirs for free?

People Love to dance, not everyone is a Rockette or a stripper and getting paid for it but still people practice their Art.

How many people Paint or draw but have never sold any of their Artwork?

Poets, writers, Karaoke singers?

I think that a lot of people just enjoy sharing what they love to do with others, Money is not the prime motivator for them to get up and perform.


Choosing to make a business out of doing what so many others are willing to do for free isn't really the best laid plan and therefore shouldn't be complained about when it doesn't work out as hoped.

[JAUQO III-X]

Originally Posted by fivestringgecko

Yet another good point this thread has brought up.

Is there a difference between getting caught up in the glamour of being a musician and keeping it as just a part of our main goal? I mean, without the glamour aspect of it, wouldn't it just be another job?

5sg.

You keep mentioning job, it really is a job, when it comes to taking care of ones music business it should not be looked at as if it's a job, it should be taken as a form of survival.


Club owners are about their business and when they see bands take peanuts, they recognize that the bands aren't about the business and continue to offer peanuts, especially when none of the bands complain to the club owners.



There really is no entity to blame for this other than the bands.

[nortonrider]

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

Some clubs would hardly have any patrons if it weren't for live music.

and some are full even without a band.

[fivestringgecko]

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

You keep mentioning job, it really is a job, when it comes to taking care of ones music business it should not be looked at as if it's a job, it should be taken as a form of survival.

True, I do keep mentioning job. But not "job" in the sense that you're talking about, which I agree with. I'm talking about "job" in the sense of "I hate my job" like you hear many people talking about in their daily lives. As in "f**k, I have to go to work." I guess I'm still struggling to find the balance of treating my music like a job without the "job" taking the fun and enjoyment out of playing, you know?

I hope that makes sense...

5sg.

[JAUQO III-X]

I am an artist and a business man that has no thin line between the two. Why should I let my artistic being be taken advantage of?


We know that most club owners think of bands as nothing more than live props.



No matter how artistically inclined one may be, at the end of the day they want to eat a meal too. Why shouldn't they when others are getting fat off of what they bring to the table.

[nortonrider]

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

How is offering a band pennies stroking ones ego?

Bass Player:
"I won't get on your stage for less than $100.!"
Bar Owner:
"Then you won't be getting on my stage".

[JAUQO III-X]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

and some are full even without a band.

Like I said, some clubs.

[JAUQO III-X]

Originally Posted by fivestringgecko

True, I do keep mentioning job. But not "job" in the sense that you're talking about, which I agree with. I'm talking about "job" in the sense of "I hate my job" like you hear many people talking about in their daily lives. As in "f**k, I have to go to work." I guess I'm still struggling to find the balance of treating my music like a job without the "job" taking the fun and enjoyment out of playing, you know?

I hope that makes sense...

5sg.

No, I fully understood where you were coming from.